You’re completely alone in the wilderness. You only have 10 pieces of gear. If you can tough it out longer than nine other people, you win $500,000. Also, there are bears. And maybe a wolverine here and there. How long do you think you would last?
This is the actual premise of one of my all-time favorite TV shows, Alone. One of the show’s producers, Ryan Pender, joins me this week to tell me the surprising lessons people learn about life and themselves when they’re completely isolated and solely focused on their survival. Even if you haven’t seen a single episode, you’ll love this conversation and how lessons from the wilderness can apply to your life.
In this episode:
Watch Alone on the History Channel or online!
Follow Jon on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook.
Order Soundtracks, Jon's newest book available wherever you find quality books!
You’re completely alone in the wilderness. You only have 10 pieces of gear. If you can tough it out longer than nine other people, you win $500,000. Also, there are bears. And maybe a wolverine here and there. How long do you think you would last?
This is the actual premise of one of my all-time favorite TV shows, Alone. One of the show’s producers, Ryan Pender, joins me this week to tell me the surprising lessons people learn about life and themselves when they’re completely isolated and solely focused on their survival. Even if you haven’t seen a single episode, you’ll love this conversation and how lessons from the wilderness can apply to your life.
In this episode:
Watch Alone on the History Channel or online!
Follow Jon on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook.
Order Soundtracks, Jon's newest book available wherever you find quality books!
Hey everyone and welcome to the All It Takes is a Goal podcast, the best place in the entire world, including all of Canada, to learn how to build new thoughts, new actions, and new results. I'm your host, Jon Acuff and today I'm joined by Ryan Pender. Who's that? I'm so, so glad you asked. Ryan Pender is an executive producer at ITV America, where he's been a lead creative on the History Channel show Alone for the past eight seasons. Prior to Alone, Pender's expertise and adventure and documentary-based programming includes series that have premiered on the Science Channel, the History Channel, National Geographic, maybe you've heard of that one, and Discovery. Before his 10 years at ITV America, Ryan documented life during the Iraq War while embedded with troops. He's also produced projects for Fuse, Comedy Central, and Vice. If you've never seen the show Alone, I highly recommend it. It's an amazing show. It's absolutely crazy. They take 10 people, they drop them off by themselves. They have to film themselves, there's not a camera crew with them, they have to film themselves, come up with a shelter, and figure out how to eat. And the person who lasts the longest wins half a million dollars. But what's really interesting is they don't tell the people when somebody's quit. You have this little sat phone, you can tap out. So at any minute, there's this psychological pressure to tap out. And when you tap out, a boat comes and picks you up, or a helicopter if a grizzly bear is actively trying to eat you, that happens on the show. There are so many grizzly bears on this show. And so what's really interesting is you never know where you stand in the game. And you never know how long the game is going to be. The game could be 10 days, the game could be 50 days, there was one that was 100 days. So you don't know "Am I one of the last two people left? Am I one of the last seven people left?" And it's fascinating. Now, even if you've never seen a single second of that show, I think you're going to love this episode. My favorite part is where Ryan explains what everyone who spends up to 100 days alone in the wilderness, surrounded by grizzly bears and wolverines, when they're struggling to find food, what they ultimately learn about themselves and what really matters in life. There's a huge life lesson hidden in this episode from someone who has spent the last eight years working with people who push themselves to the outer limits of human achievement. I can't wait for you to hear this one. But first, today's episode is brought to you by Remodel Health. Navigating health benefits can be a struggle, especially for leaders who wear so many different hats within their organization. Luckily, you don't have to stress about picking the perfect plan for your team. Thanks to Remodel Health, you can get tailored health benefits that fit your organization's needs. Their in-depth personalized approach to health benefits allows you to discover more options, serve employees better, and control the cost and quality of your health benefits like never before. What's more, Remodel customers save an average of 56% on health benefits. Imagine what you could do with savings like that. With their dedicated team of compassionate healthcare experts and consultants, your organization can experience better benefits while still getting the hands on individual care your people need. Are you ready to learn how Remodel Health could help your organization provide better benefits and find bigger savings? Remodel's benefits consultants can run a health benefits analysis on your unique team to evaluate your current plan and help you find a better alternative that saves you money and better meets the needs of your people. Head over to RemodelHealth.com/Analysis today to learn more about the health benefits analysis and get your personalized evaluation. Let me spell that one, because the word analysis can be tricky. I've never once spelled the word"occasionally" correct. So fortunately, it's not the word occasionally, but that, that word can be tricky. It's RemodelHealth.com slash A-N-A-L-Y-S-I-S. RemodelHealth.com/Analysis. Experience better benefits and bigger savings with Remodel Health. Alright, let's jump right into the interview. Alright, Ryan, thank you so much for joining me. I'm excited about, you know, the finale. It's been a really fun season. And I'm thrilled that I get to ask you some questions about one of my favorite shows, Alone.
Ryan Pender:Good. I'm glad to be here.
Jon Acuff:So for anybody who doesn't watch, and I've done my best to tell people they 100% should watch, you take 10 people you put them in the wilderness, they have to film themselves, there's very little equipment, they have to hunt and gather and do all the work. What do you think, you know, in the eighth season, is the most difficult aspect for people? Is it the physical work? Is it the mental work? Where do you see people start to wear out and actually have to tap out, which means they're out of the game?
Ryan Pender:I think it's a mix for everybody. I think a lot of folks come up against their, their demons inside. And it's a matter of how long those things take to play out. I think the open ended nature of it also, gee, there's no countdown, right? We've all been there, where it's like, "Okay, two more weeks, three more weeks, I can get through this." This, it's totally open ended. And that can mess with you quite a bit, because you just don't know when it's going to end. And you can push yourself as far as you can and push yourself further than you think. But ultimately, either your mind is going to wear out, that's kind of it right? I think that the beauty of the show is all these folks, the participants that come in, are learning where their walls are. Not everybody gets that chance, right? For the most part, I think that's one of the big allures of it.
Jon Acuff:That's a really interesting point, because there's not a single marathon where they don't tell you that it's going to be 26.2. Like every marathon goes, there's a finish line, you'll know. You can look at your watch, but without a backstop of because you don't know when somebody's quit. So you don't know. Are there five people left? Are there two people left? Is it me, and I'm gutting it out against a 23 year old who's trying to save his family with this money he's going to earn. You just don't know what you're up against. I think that's so fascinating. It seems like that there's a consistent moment where people start to practice tapping out. So they start having conversations where they start saying things like, "Well, you know, my great aunt really misses me. I know, she's back home in Topeka, Kansas. And she's probably think I want to do it for her like, to leave." And they kind of it almost feels like they rehearse quitting before they actually quit. Do you ever see patterns where people start to do that?
Unknown:A little bit. I think everybody talks about it, you know, "What's it worth? What's it worth? What's it worth?" And then, you know, they kind of get to a point where, yeah, they pull that trigger, or hit the tap out button, or call us, you know, and say, "Hey, I can't do it anymore." The beauty of Alone, you know, we don't give them notepads and pencils. They're not allowed to have them. Because we want them to tell us what's going on in their head on the camera. We want to see those things, and we want to hear those things. And because of that, and the fact that they're alone, they don't have anyone to speak to or talk to or soundboard off of, the camera becomes that person, you know, for lack of a better word. And yeah, there is an element of that. They're talking to the camera, but they're really talking to themselves, either talking them into something, or talking themselves out of something,
Jon Acuff:How many of those decisionsso it's really interesting, there's no pen, there's no paperHow many of those little decisions went into creating the nature of the show? Because there's certainly the"you have to film," but I think that that's what's unique about it. I think somebody who hasn't watched it might go, "Oh, yeah, I've seen Survivor. I've seen other shows", but I feel like there's a lot of really deliberate decisions that make this show different. What are some of those decisions?
Ryan Pender:Some of those decisions are the limiting of gear, right? Yeah, you can only let's I want to say it's about 40 or 42 items that they can choose from, you know, off, not on those lists. You know, there's also the "you can't bring" lists, and it's a Bic lighter, Zippo, fuel, notebook, you know, so many different things. We want to see the participants be creative. There's little things, you know, like a piece of paper, and a pencil, you know, you could do that with charcoal, and some birch bark. When you don't have all these materials just at your fingertips, how do you adapt? And a lot of thinking, a lot of thought went into all of that. How can we make this as lean as possible to make it as authentic as possible? And keep true to the spirit of the show, which is basically, you know, one person, 10 items, you know, how long can you go?
Jon Acuff:Well, to the point about how long can you go, there's a documentary The Barkley Marathons, I don't know if you've seen it, about a crazy outdoor running event where it's 100 miles you have to there's no map, really, you have to use longitude, latitude. And the host of it says, they always pick somebody who they think won't make it like to add to the mix. So there was a contestant on one of the early seasons, where they called the boat back while they could still see the boat. Like I think they could see it's still in the harbor. They just yelled, they didn't even tap out. Because there were so many bears, so much danger. When you're picking contestants. Do you have a sense of "Wow, I think this person could go the long way" or "Wow, they're going to be great for the show. But they might, they might run into some stuff they're not anticipating"? Do you ever think about the contestants that way?
Ryan Pender:A few things, right? I personally try to refrain from calling them"contestants" because it's not really a competition and I get people against each other Yeah, I call them participants. They're participating in something that's bigger than them. And I get that question that you just asked quite often, in fact, in casting, the next coming season, that exact question came up. And we don't, we don't do that. Because, and the truth of the matter is, this experience is so difficult, the best of the best can come out in a week, I know who you're speaking of, and that person, you know, had the bravado, had the skills, but he had never truly tested himself in that arena. And it was just too much for him. And you'll see that in the earlier seasons, certainly seasons one and season two. And then as seasons progress, you know, more and more people contact us if they are interested in being in and we vet them, and we put them through a boot camp, see what they're made of. And we've done this for all seasons. Seeing, you know, are they telling us the truth? Can they do these things? Have they done these things? So really, we always go for the best of the best. And again, the nature of this experience is so difficult. Doesn't matter who the best is, they can easily be the first one out. And that's a mental game in its own right, right. It's not being the last one out. It's also what happens if you're the first one out,
Jon Acuff:Do you tell people where they so the boat comes. They tap out, for whatever reason. Do you tell them? "Okay, you're the third one out, you're the fourth." You don't give them that information?
Ryan Pender:We do not give them that information. So when they come out of the field, we do not tell them where they landed in the in the run. That comes from when they watch the episodes.
Jon Acuff:Okay, wow. Because that's a whole other experience too then. That's, I mean, that's really fascinating to the point of, so now you're in the eighth season, the finale is coming up, you're working on the ninth season. It seems like certain shows, as people watch them, it changes the nature of the show. So for instance, Survivor, season one, only Richard Hatch formed alliances. By season four, people were forming alliances at the airport before they got dropped off for Survivor. So where have you seen participants get better and better and better as they recognize the show is evolving. Because I love that in this season, for instance, Biko mentioned, you know, other contestants, you could there was almost callbacks, and you could see, okay, this is a learning environment, and they're getting better, which forces you to make, you know, the environments even more challenging. Have you seen that happened with participants?
Ryan Pender:Yep. So, as you can imagine, for an experience of this level, you know, there is rules on rules on rules that, you know, we have to update every season. Because there's always a way around a rule, right, and these folks figure it out, you know. And a great example, this season, Tim, you know, we allow a toothbrush, right? No toothpaste, but they can have a toothbrush, you got to keep your teeth clean. He got smart, and went to an antique shop, he went to like three different antique shops, and bought like a sterling silver toothbrush. And so now we're going through their gear, making sure that all this equipment complies. And that rule was not in the book. There's no rule that says you can't bring a metal toothbrush. Because I knew as soon as I saw it, I said he's gonna make a lure out of that. I know exactly. And I'm like, Really? It's absolutely thrilling.
Jon Acuff:So good. So good.
Ryan Pender:So now that's a new rule, you kno. We allow a belt. And when folks come with a belt made a paracord we're like,"Okay, no, that is a belt, but it's also your gonna use it as paracord. So, you know, every every item you bring has to have many purposes. You know, somebody brought a hammock one year, and he utilized that hammock as a gill net as well. I thought that was super smart. You know, there's always ways around the rules. And if you're not a thinking person, then you know, you shouldn't be a participant in the show. It's kind of one of the most exciting parts of it is when somebody figures out a way around a loophole around it and you're like, "Damn, that was good."
Jon Acuff:Yeah. You can see those moments happen. And I imagine you guys cheer when you see them. It feels like the show, even if you're not a quote unquote outdoors person, if you're not into rugged, you know, terrain, there's so many leadership lessons in it. I think entire leadership books could be written about the things people learn, the things they go through. I think one of my favorites was there was a season and I won't spoil it for people, but somebody had saved up a bunch of fish. Enough fish for the next 30 days. But they weren't eating enough and got pulled for medical reasons. And it was this really painful, gut wrenching moment where they realize that planning for the future they had forgot to live in the present. And I think that there's 1000 applications for everyone, a mom, a dad, a single adult, whatever. What are some leadership lessons you walk away from and go "Oh, that's right, that's bigger than just this arena"?
Ryan Pender:That's one of the big ones. That same season, there was a participant named Callie, and she was always reminding herself to be present, to be present. And you hear that a lot from a lot of the participants. Just be in that moment. And just be aware of the things that are going on in that moment. And I think that always echoes to me because I think we all I think I read something today about like, half of our lives, we're thinking about the future and not about the present. I think that's something we all have to keep in mind. And, you know, I'm guilty of it, you know, looking down the line and not seeing what's right in front of you. Another thing, I think that's kind of sort of answers the question, it's about chasing the buck, right? At the end of the day Alone, it's a very simple concept, you know, you have limited items, you go out by yourself, you last as long as you can, you learn what you can about yourself, and at the end of the day, there may be a pay day or or there may not be. But eventually, there's gonna be a point in almost everybody's run, that a half million dollars, does nothing for you out there. Money means nothing unless you're going to burn it. And I think people almost always, almost always, come back that money means nothing and what's really the most important is family. And I think especially in the world we're in right now, with the pandemic world and everything else. I think those are two of the things I try to cling on to as much as I can, in everyday life. Because, you know, I see all this footage that these folks give and all the things that hit the cutting room floor and so many lessons. But those are the two big ones is that chasing the buck isn't always worth it at the end. What is worth it is family.
Jon Acuff:I think that's so true. And a friend asked me that the other day, because I lost the big opportunity. And I was kind of telling him how frustrated I was or sad about it. And he said, "Well, what would you have had more of if you had gotten that opportunity?" I realized I wouldn't have had a double house. Like I wouldn't have put an additional bunk house on top of the current one I have. And and I realized I was going "Oh, wait a second. You're right. I got stuck on that." Speaking of cutting room floor, this is more of a technical question. But how many, just, hours of footage do you guys pour through per per episode? 10 People are giving you, you know, days and days, is it, you know, can even put a number on that?
Ryan Pender:Yep! I can. It averages between 4 nowadays. Season one, 800 hours
Jon Acuff:Per one hour show or?
Ryan Pender:For the whole series.
Jon Acuff:Okay.
Ryan Pender:That was season one. Now, you know, we're in the 4000 hour range.
Jon Acuff:4000 hours?
Ryan Pender:4000 hours. And that's, you know, a lot of times it's cameras running, you know, not attended, or they've fallen asleep and the cameras are running. But yeah, and we have to sort through that, in real time. You know, you, you may have somebody making a fire, but they're talking about the relationship with their father. You may have somebody building a shelter, but really what they're doing is talking about their relationship with their children or what they miss. So you have to watch all of that in real time. So you get to really, really, really, really know these people.
Jon Acuff:It seems like a lot of the people who do well have almost, not everybody, but some of them, have a spiritual kind of element to their time in the woods. So they're, they're aware that, for instance, Alan, from season one, he felt like a poet/philosopher. I mean, he was quoting The Raven, you know, in his little shelter. Have you found that as a consistency? Like, if you said, "Here's some common threads we see" is having this kind of bigger picture spiritual elements, something that you run into a lot among participants?
Ryan Pender:I would say, and again, in the earlier days, that spiritual element was a huge part of it. It goes for a lot of people. Again, it's not always the folks that make it to the end, it's, you know, the folks that make it to the middle or almost to the end, a large spiritual element. The last few seasonsagain, I don't want to spoil itit had to do with life experience and having lived this, this world. And I think both of those are quite a bit intertwined. Right? I think the folks that have lived this have a different spiritual approach than maybe a lot of us that are, you know, doing the grind. You know, they, they just see things differently. They attack things differently. It's just a different way of doing business. And I try to bring as much of that into my life as I can after watching many, many hours.
Jon Acuff:How has this changed you? I mean, cuz you're getting a you have a front row seat to the human experience. I mean, this is a, you know, there's so much footage we don't even see and you're on the front row that what are some things that you might catch yourself, you know, saying something somebody said or changing your perspective on something. How has this for you, as an executive producer, and you've seen, I mean, you were embedded in Iraq, like this isn't your first go round with difficult circumstances, but have you seen that impact your life?
Ryan Pender:I think so. Um, I'm trying to figure out ones that pop into my head, you know. You know, there's Mark D'Ambrosio from from seasons seven? Season seven, you know, there's that, you know, "All it takes is all you got," that was his motto, that's all he ever said. And then there was a point where he was reassessing things. And he said, "Everything I want, I've already got." And I thought that was super, that kind of hit me, right?
Jon Acuff:What am I chasing?
Ryan Pender:What am I chasing? You know, and I can almost pull out, you know, every single participant that says something and you know, like I said, Callie, from season three, or there's just so many, so many things that you just watch and you're like, "Right." And I think that's the beauty of this show, is that if you really look at it, it's yeah, the show is not about, it's not about winning the money. It's really about what happens when you're completely alone. And you don't have your phone, you don't have your computer. And you just kind of assess what your world is. And if you really, if you're watching the show, there's the layers of what they're creating, and how they're living, and how they're adapting. But there's also the layers of everybody's stories somehow talk to the people at home. Because, right, because everybody can identify with something most of these folks say, and I think that's a really cool part about the show. But yeah, I mean, I'll just leave it. I guess I'll just leave it there.
Jon Acuff:I think what's really interesting is that it is so authentic. I mean, when I came to talk to you guys about maybe having somebody on the podcast, I realized there's three people I'd love to interview about the participants and they're off grid in a cave somewhere, doing primative skills with a bow and arrow from the 14th century, like the Mongols. Like it was really fun to think, "Wow, they're authentic, they don't have WiFi," but at the same time, it's relatable. So even if you're not doing these adventures, you can see yourself in the show. And I think that involves storytelling. So how do you approach a show like this, an experience like this, as a storyteller?
Ryan Pender:Lots of layers. Lots and lots of layers. And it sort of goes back to what I was saying before about, you know, it's not just about being out there. It's about there's a honeymoon phase where "Oh, my God, it's beautiful here. This is the most amazing place I've ever been. I'm all alone. Solitude." And then we kind of get into the building aspect of it, right? Like, how are they What is their shelter going to be? How are they getting water? How are they securing food. But eventually it comes down to being alone. And then we really start learning about these people, maybe some people have started to fall off at that point, and allows us more time to start digging in to who these folks are and what elements and ideas and personalities we can pull out of their story to relate to the people at home. Because again, I think everybody picks their favorite or who they think is gonna last the longest or who you're going to identify with the most. And I think that's the great thing about it. And the other great thing is it's not a competition between each other, right? Like these folks all come in, you know, they go through an orientation system, a class, basically for a week or two, at location. And where in any other show, they would be you know, "I'm going to beat this person, I'm going to beat that person." No, that's not true. They're actually all friends by the time they all launch. And then it's not about competing with other people it's really competing with themselves. So those are the kind of like the big storylines we hit. And it's that takeaway, you know, when you learn about some someone whose mother has brain cancer, or what they want to do with that money and how that could change their lives. You learn about relationships with parents, right, like good or bad. And again, it's all those things that folks at home can identify with. And I think that's the thing that that really connects with with people
Jon Acuff:Yeah, and I think that's the humanity part of it because you learn somebody I grew up in foster care. I never had Christmas presents. And so my wife's physical presence means a lot to me. What am I doing out here? And I think you see those kind of stories told over and over again. Let's talk tap out for a second. So they tap out. They say "come rescue me". What's the range of time? Is it that, you know, it's a 10 minute they have to sit there and wait additional time? Is that you guys are three hours away? And I know every location is different. Does it take a long time? Is it a short time?
Ryan Pender:It depends right? It depends if we have to scramble a chopper. You know if it's a major issue we can scramble a chopper, but basically you know, our response time is somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour that we can get these folks on a normal extraction. If we need to be there faster we can and that's usually requires air support.
Jon Acuff:Okay, and speaking of needing air support, I feel like you guys pick locations based on number of bears. Eventually the show just going to be hosted on top of a bear. There are so many bears and I went to Glacier National Park recently and that they rent you bear spray at the airport is crazy. Like if you landed in Tampa and they rented you alligator spray at the airport. You would say you guys got to fix this alligator and this thing's out of control or like they give you a bell for the world's greatest predator. What's been the closest or scariest moment where "Okay, wow", like because it feels like every season there's at least one bear It's like, "I'd love to smell your enclosure" and on the infrared. So I think that's part of what makes the show just bonkers to me. What's been one that you'd say "Yeah, that one. That one was scary"?
Ryan Pender:I think there's been plenty. I think Jordan's interaction with a wolverine was super terrifying.
Jon Acuff:I love that you said that sentence so calmly, to like Jordan's, like you said it like Jordan got his taxes done."Jordan's interaction with wolverine, Jon, now that I look back on it, that was harrowing." That's crazy.
Ryan Pender:Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. And, you know, we don't go looking for locations and "Oh my god, it's just gonna be bears. Just gonna be this, it's just gonna be that." I think each location brings its own element of danger. And of course, there's danger and there's perceived danger. And that goes for any location, any interaction, you know, whether you're, you're in a city or you're in the wilderness. It's a matter of how you adapt to it. The season two part you're discussing about one of the participants coming out early, because the bear again, and that one, there was no aggression on the bear's part. Well, maybe a little bit, you know, that was just more than he was willing to chance. And again, and that's, that's totally fine. I think that's totally fine. That's what the show is, it's what are your boundaries? And whether it's cold, freezing, frostbite, what are you willing to put into this and why? You know, and those are the things we want to know is why. Why are you doing this?
Jon Acuff:Well, that was what was interesting Sue, one of the participants who had an encounter with bears, and ended up saying that part of why she left was the anger it caused in her. And that that was something that she had worked on, you could tell that that was a part of her emotion. So I think it's interesting when you bump into a boundary, because her response wasn't "bears are scary" it was,"hey, this brought out a side of me that I'm not comfortable with. And I'm gonna work on that. And I'm going to tap out as part of that." So seeing people discover their boundaries in real time is really fascinating.
Ryan Pender:It is. I think there's so much you know, and not necessarily in in the alone series, because I think, you know, bravado doesn't really play a huge part. But I think everybody, a lot of folks have these preconceived ideas of how they would act in a certain situation. And then when presented with that situation, things don't always go the way they thought they would handle it. And I think that's interesting to watch.
Jon Acuff:Yeah, to see that change, to actually change in real time. Have you ever predicted correctly who the winner was going to be from the beginning? So like, you've done the base camp or the boot camp, and you go, "You know, what, this person's on a different level", and then you pick it right?
Ryan Pender:I've had some ideas. And I think I try to usually pick two people. So in case I'm wrong, I can say no, I was
Jon Acuff:I called both.
Ryan Pender:But there are folks that are just, you know, they come in and you're just like,"holy cow, like you're just, you're incredible. And you've lived this or your your attitude is the right attitude." And there's other times I've been completely wrong, you know, and just, you know, didn't expect somebody to come out as early as they did. There really is truthfully, no telling. It's you might have the best credentials and the best experiences but you know, all of a sudden, you get sick or you something happens. Sprain your ankle, Sprain your ankle and it just like that, you're out.
Jon Acuff:Get a fish hook in your hand in Mongolian. Totally hypothetical. Like that was so sad for her. She had worked so hard to come back. Again, she would have lasted so long. Yeah, that's true. It's true. Okay, so if you're gonna make a list of "Okay, the things I've learned about what it takes to really survive", and it can be survive with yourself. I mean, I just realized the other day, that the shower is one of the only quiet times I have left in my life. And I thought, "Okay, I need to probably extend that past the 10 minute shower" like that's the reason I have good ideas in the shower. It's the only time I'm not looking at my phone, there's not chaos, whatever. What do you think are some of the mental aspects that help people go far that you go,"Okay, it was repeating mantras to themselves. It was holding the goal top of mind. It was staying in motion and creative." What do you feel like are some of the shared characteristics as somebody who pushes through this goal?
Ryan Pender:Sam Larson said, in the redemption season,"Wwhen I left Vancouver Island, I was"I'm paraphrasing"I was angry, you know, when things didn't go my way, or I couldn't provide for myself or think all those things, because I just left angry." And what he had learned leaving Mongolia, he said, "When I had a thankful attitude, and when things you know, went my way, you know, more and more things came my way." And I think that's what he learned is instead of being pessimistic, being optimistic maybe allows the world to be a little bit more gentle on you. Or maybe it's just your outlook and, you know, after having those that first round of life experiences for Sam, the second round, you know, you just, you weren't going to get him down. He knew himself better.
Jon Acuff:And yeah, and you could definitely tell in that Mongolia season. Okay, so we're gonna do some alone super nerd lightning round questions. So if any, you know, we're just gonna nerd out here for a second. But number one, gill net or bow and arrow, you got to pick one.
Ryan Pender:It depends on location. I would say gill net.
Jon Acuff:Gill net. Okay. Um, second question is Roland the best contestant of all time. In my mind. I mean, he seemed disappointed when the show ended. Like he, I felt like he probably went back to rock house, and you guys had to keep pulling him away from it. You didn't even really tear it down at the end of the show. Like everybody else's structure, you remove his you're like, "Dude, we can't beat rock house." Rock house was a beast to take apart like that. There's no question about it. I know, it's hard to say best because maybe you don't want to insult other contestants.
Ryan Pender:Again, I think you know, each person at each location, you know, the good and the bad come out and I think for Roland's you know, living in Alaska and you know, in Red Devil, Alaska and being like, it was just, it was close to home for him. If you take, you know, Jordan Jonas. You know, he'd lived with Evenki and and lived in that world. You say, take somebody like Callie Russell, you know, who's from Montana. You know, she went out there and just, to me, she's one of the most inspirational people I've ever met. Like, her attitude was incredible. Everything about her was amazing. So I could go on and on about all the great things about every participant. When I look at participants being the best or not, it's not the folks that necessarily win, it's about their experience.
Jon Acuff:Sure. With Roland when you spliced him building his like, the toughest meat box or whatever it was with the footage of the wolverine stealing the other person's meat because Roland is essentially doing like a PhD level "Well, you can skin a tree all you want the wolverines gonna get the top of it." It was just so perfectly done. But Callie, okay, this goes back to a rapid fire question. I think Callie's shelter was the best that was ever built. It looked like an Anthropology inside. Like it looked like an Airbnb like she was sweeping like moss covered stones in a pattern. Like, in your perspective, you've got to go live in somebody's shelter from any of the seasons for a week. Who are you picking?
Ryan Pender:For a week?
Jon Acuff:Yeah, week,
Ryan Pender:I would take Callie"Blue Heron", which I think is when you're referencing But I mean, I guess for for the long run, I would take you know, Roland's no question. Plus, he's already built it, so I don't have to, so.
Jon Acuff:Yeah, that place is amazing. Okay, you're stranded, you've got one participant that's going to help you survive for a month. Who are you picking? Like if you had to partner with one person?
Ryan Pender:That's a tough one.
Jon Acuff:These are very tough. They're super nerdy.
Ryan Pender:You know, I would probably take Jordan Jonas.
Jon Acuff:Okay.
Ryan Pender:It's a few fold. because number one, he's incredibly capable. He's extremely insightful. And he's funny and fun. And I feel like you know, if you're out there for a month, you're gonna bump heads. And I feel like if there's anybody that you're not gonna really bump heads with, it's gonna be Jordan Jonas.
Jon Acuff:Alright. Um, next question. Would you ever not put a ferro rod on a necklace? Well, every time somebody loses one, I'm like, if it was on a land, it was on a neck, is that illegal to have a ferro rod on a necklace?
Ryan Pender:No, I mean, it comes out of your cordage allotment. So you can bring a ferro rod and then bring cordage or, of course make cordage but yeah. If it's not in a part of your your knife holster, then, yeah, it should. It should not be floating around your pocket.
Jon Acuff:Okay, a loose ferro rod makes me so anxious. I just, as a viewer, I feel like that's gonna get washed away, or it's gonna catch on fire. And bad things are gonna happen. How far away is the crew when you guys are filming the show? Is it that you're an hour away? Like, are you guys locked in an editing room and there's, you know, like, 50 editing machines?
Ryan Pender:No, does that all the editing happens back in New York and Connecticut.
Jon Acuff:Gotcha. Okay.
Ryan Pender:Up there, there's usually, you know, we're usually so remote that we're in, you know, one building or a few outbuildings way on the edge of somewhere. You know, we call it home base. That's where people operate out of, you know, there's a crew that's working there. There's, you know, currently, you know, it's Dan Bree, who's the EP in the field there is, you know, looking down the line of what's what's happening is working with, you know, the upholder and Lars and the safety team. But meanwhile, the camera crew is out getting B roll. So all those you know, beautiful aerial shots and what they're kind of wandering around in the general area to get footage. But everybody comes back to home base, so we're never very far from home base, because you may have to scramble to get an hour down the lake or up the river or, you know, wherever.
Jon Acuff:Okay. The thing that's fascinating to me, so they get picked up by the boat. What's the food that they have on the boat? So I tap out. You guys pick me up. Is it you slowly work them back to food like yeah, peanut butter crackers? Like, have they requested it? Like, what's the first thing I get to eat when the boat comes?
Ryan Pender:Well, it depends, right? You know, we learn more and more every year about diet and nutrition. You know, we've got a nutritionist on beforehand, during, and after. We've got diets catered to the participants based on their diet when they went out there. But you know, usually bone broth, bananas, you kind of have to basically slowly keep them in starvation mode, depending on where they left off and how their body is. And slowly bring them out of starvation, really. You can't come back and have a hamburger and hot wings and a beer, like that's not going to fly. You need to slowly build your way out of that, because your body just simply can't handle it. So you know, I think a lot of times when the folks come out, you know, they want more food, more food, more food, and it's a very delicate balance as to how much we can provide and exactly what we can provide, to keep them slowly coming out of experience they just had.
Jon Acuff:Okay, last question, and then I'll let you go. This has been a blast for me. I've loved getting to talk to you. I've so many so many ques I mean, Last two questions. On a scale of one to 10. How effective is the phrase "Hey, bear!" against the grizzly bear?
Ryan Pender:Ah, probably not super effective. It lets it know you're there. You know, you definitely want to sneak up on a grizzly bear, so. But outside of having bear bells on you know, that's your next one. Or clapping.
Jon Acuff:Okay. Because when I was in Glacier National Park, I felt like I was gonna yell "Hey, Bear", and I didn't feel super confident about that as a ward.
Ryan Pender:Yeah, but when you're out there by yourself, eventually, you know, you start saying things. Because it starts with like, a slow, like, "Hey, I'm here." And then you know, the deeper you go, you know, you start getting a little louder.
Jon Acuff:You start to scream a little more. Last question, what locations are you guys considering for the future? Certainly, if you can't release them by no means feel pressured for that. But will you go overseas, again, like Mongolia? Are you taking an around the world kind of view?
Ryan Pender:It's a case by case basis every year. Finding these locations is extremely difficult, because again, you need, you know, basically like 50 square miles of nothingness around you. No, you know, no infrastructure, no business and anything like that. Yeah, you want to be as isolated and as far removed from the world as possible. And every year based on the network's interests, that's how we kind of pick the locations. We'll look at like five or six or seven locations, brown scout a few of those, and then whichever one seems to be the best within the the months that we plan on being there is the one we go with. It changes every year. But right now, you know, usually what we like to do is go in right around September as the seasons coming to a close. You can you can harvest your berries, and you can make your shelter. So by the time you know, winter really hits, you know, you should, you're sort of dialed in, so I can't say we're going to we're going this coming season.
Jon Acuff:You already have it picked out?
Ryan Pender:We already have it picked out.
Jon Acuff:Okay. That's what I was curious about. Because the locations are amazing. I hadn't thought about it has to be 50 square miles and you can't have like a tourist helicopter flying over that says, like, Jack's Outdoor Tours or something.
Ryan Pender:You want it you want to keep it as true to format as possible. Isolated, alone, you know. Even looking up and seeing an airplane, you know, like, even a jet, you know, can kind of take you out of the experience a little bit, you know.
Jon Acuff:Oh, yeah, if you saw contrail.
Ryan Pender:Yeah, it kind of brings me to the the Chris McCandless thing, right. Like, every time he looked up, there was an airplane and he just kept trying to get further and further and further out. So that's kind of one of the things where we're looking at it is like, are we in a flight pattern? Is there anything that's going to take these folks out of what the experience is supposed to be? And that's being alone isolated, and as remote as possible.
Jon Acuff:I love the show. I talk about it all the time, obviously, if I'm pulling out, you know, Roland facts. I would love to know where he is right now. I think he's throwing an axe somewhere right now. He may be. He may be. Probably that he made, like handmade in some difficult way.
Ryan Pender:Well, chances are when Roland hears this, he'll just give you a holler.
Jon Acuff:I'm sure he's listening to podcasts. I'm sure he's subscribed, like right now he's on he's probably an Android guy. He's probably on an Android right now. He's listening to podcasts.
Ryan Pender:I think he still has a flip phone.
Jon Acuff:Yeah, I'm sure he'll see me tweet this episode. And he'll be like, "Oh, Ryan was on a podcast? I gotta get on that podcast." I'll hit him up on Snapchat. I'm sure it'll be fine. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for doing this if you had one last thing to say "Hey, if anybody's interested in the show, here's the best place to go" you know, where can people easily connect with all this great content, this amazing show?
Ryan Pender:Current season is on The History Channel. So that's your best spot is the History Channel. We're I think it's Episode 809 tonight. I'm not sure when this will air, but we're getting down to it so you can go to History.com or you can go to History Channel and get the most current episode.
Jon Acuff:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Ryan. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Jon. Thank you for listening to my interview with Ryan Pender today. We'll put all the links in the show notes as always, and thank you for reviewing my podcast. When your podcast is newish, like mine, I think it's newish at this point. The reviews are super important. So make sure you subscribe or follow or whatever it is that the kids are saying these days about podcast and please write a review. Last but not least, big thank you once again to our sponsor, Remodel Health visit RemodelHealth.com/Analysis today to learn more about the health benefits analysis and get your personalized evaluation. That's it for this week. I'll see you next Monday. And remember, all it takes is a goal.
Producer:Thanks for listening. To learn more about the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast and to get access to today's show notes, transcript, and exclusive content from Jon Acuff, visit Acuff.me/podcast. Thanks again for joining us. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast.