All It Takes Is A Goal

ATG 28: How to take the awkward out of networking with Jordan Harbinger

July 05, 2021 Jon Acuff Season 1 Episode 28
All It Takes Is A Goal
ATG 28: How to take the awkward out of networking with Jordan Harbinger
Show Notes Transcript

If you've ever heard the word “networking” and were instantly flooded with images of uncomfortable cocktail parties, awkward business card exchanges, and cheesy Zoom calls, it’s probably because that’s how most of the world is still running networking events.

Luckily there are people like Jordan Harbinger that are making the world of networking much more enjoyable and much more worth your time. Jordan is a lawyer that left the corporate world to, in his words, “read books and talk to smart people.” His podcast, the Jordan Harbinger Show, receives over 11 million downloads a month and features insights and strategies from the world’s most successful people.

Listen to my conversation with Jordan for practical advice about how to build the network you need to help you accomplish the goals you’re working on without all the awkwardness.

In this episode:
The Jordan Harbinger Show
Jordan's website
Jordan's free course
Jordan on Instagram & Twitter

Follow Jon on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook.

Order Soundtracks, Jon's newest book available wherever you find quality books!

Jon Acuff:

Hey everyone, and welcome to the All It Takes is a Goal podcast, the best place in the entire world, including all of Canada, to learn how to build new thoughts, new actions and new results. I'm your host, Jon Acuff and today I've got an awesome conversation with Jordan Harbinger. I asked him on the show, because networking makes me a little queasy. It does. But I know how important relationships are when it comes to goals. And if you've ever heard the word "networking" and thought, "Oh no, I have to network. There's going to be like some cocktail party where I have to throw business cards that people is going to be so cheesy." If you've ever thought anything like that, anything remotely like that, you're going to love this episode, because it's full of practical advice that will help you build an amazing network of people who can help you accomplish some amazing things. But first, today's episode is sponsored by Medi-Share. Have you guys ever had buyer's remorse? You know that feeling of intense regret because the thing you thought you just had to have was only something used once or twice? For me it was the time I bought a really expensive road bike because I thought I was going to get into cycling. I proceeded to hang it on the wall in my garage and feel ashamed for six months. Well, I know some of you are experiencing buyer's remorse right now for something much more frustrating. You know what I'm talking about. It's the healthcare you rushed to get during open enrollment last December. Well, I have some good news for you. You've probably heard me talking about our main sponsor for this podcast, Medi-Share. And these guys have the answer to healthcare buyer's remorse. Check this out, members of Medi-Share save up to 50% or more per month on their health care costs. They say the typical family saves up to $500 per month. And here's the best part, you can become a member at any time. So that means it isn't too late to ditch your buyer's remorse and switch to a more affordable health care that will save you money and help you sleep better at night. If this is your first time you're hearing about Medi-Share, it is the best alternative to health insurance that allows you to share the burden of medical bills, offers access to 900,000 plus health care providers, and has a proven 25 year track record. Plus in addition to saving hundreds per month, as a member of Medi-Share, you will also have access to free telehealth and free telecounseling. You won't find that with any traditional health insurance provider. Guys, it only takes two minutes to see how much you could save. Go investigate that for yourself and your family at Medi-Share.com/Jon. That's Medi-Share.com/Jon. Remember Jon doesn't have an H in it. So it's a M-E-D-I, that's Medi, share, S-H-A-R-E dot com slash J-O-N. Alright, let's talk about Jordans bio. Jordan is a Wall Street Journal lawyer, that's amazing, turned interview talk show host and a communications and social dynamics expert. He has hosted a top 50 iTunes podcast for over 14 years. I've been on his podcast, it's awesome. And his podcast receives over 11 million downloads per month. That is a crazy number of downloads. 11 million downloads per month, which makes the Jordan Harbinger show one of the most popular podcasts in the entire world. So here's my conversation with Jordan. Jordan, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to this.

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, likewise, man, I'm glad to be able to talk to you while I don't have to come up with all the creative questions. You know.

Jon Acuff:

I know. It's good to be on the other side of the mic. So my first question, I'd say that you're one of my most ambitious friends. Were you always ambitious? You know, this podcast, we talked a lot about goals, figuring out what you want to do with your life. Were you always ambitious? Where did that come from?

Jordan Harbinger:

No. In fact, it's funny because I don't even consider myself that ambitious. It's funny like that you say that. I was talking with another friend of mine earlier today, actually and I was saying, you know, hey, we're talking about business and stuff. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, you could do this and this and this. I'm sure you've thought about that." And I was like, "Yeah, I don't want to do live events. I don't want to sell products" and he's like, "Why don't you have a book?" and I'm like, "Oh, I turned down a book deal." And he's like, "Why? It wasn't enough money?" I was like, "No, it was like, a really good seven figure advance. But I was like, I just don't really want to write a book. Right now, especially And he's like,"That's interesting." And I was like, "Yeah, I like reading books and talking to smart people." Like I do the Jordan Harbinger show. I read books, I talk to smart people, like that's my whole life. So to add a book in there, it's like new routine, new project, new discover this, do this, market this and a lot of people love those challenges, but I'm just kind of like, eh, I'm kind of liking the train of reading books and talking to smart people, you know.

Jon Acuff:

I think that's an interesting response to you could write a book you could do, like a TV show, maybe. You could always scale. Everybody's always talking about scaling, scaling, scaling. How do you resist that temptation?

Jordan Harbinger:

I used to say yes to a lot of stuff or everything. Not probably, not literally everything, but it felt like literally everything and that was awful because it would be like, "Oh, do you know that if you do live meetups on Meetup.com, you can increase your business by 12% as studied by Meetup.coms own internal blah, blah, blah?" And I'm like,"Oh, we gotta be doing meetups every week." And then it's like,"Oh, we have to be on Twitter. Oh, we have to be on Facebook. Ah, we got to be on Instagram now and TikTok" and then eventually, pre TikTok anyway, I sort of sat down and went, alright, I'm not an Instagram because I don't want to be I am now because I like to communicate with friends and fans there. But I got on there in like 2018 or 2017, or something like that, you know. And I looked at it all the ROI that I had built for my previous business. And I was like, alright, where do most of the leads come from? One or two places. Let's focus on those places. And then when I changed my business and sort of rebooted to do the Jordan Harbinger show, I was like, okay, if I'm not doing live events, I'm not selling products. Where should I be focused? And I talked to a bunch of other podcasters and people who are growing their online media presence, it was like, I go, "Can you tell me with certainty that you've gained listeners, a significant number of listeners, from say TikTok?" And they're like, "No." Why? Why do you do it? "Well, it's growing so fast, and look how many followers I have there," and I go, but you're not monetizing it. And you're not bringing people from there to other things that you do monetize. And they're like, "No, no, not really." And I'm like, Okay, then I'm not doing it. And they were just like, "What? You're missing out." And then same thing happened with Clubhouse. This is the next big thing. It's going to disrupt podcasting. Whatever, whenever you're listening to this, right now, when we're recording it, Clubhouse downloads are down over 90%. No one frickin is using it anymore. Really. No one ever really figured out how to monetize it, save for a few souls. And everybody who was on there for like, 40 hours a week, when some folks, I know, we're on there, like 100 hours a week, they missed out on life. They did nothing to advance their business. They did almost nothing there other than some sort of nebulous networking that really wasn't that. And now they've wasted their time. Congrats on the 100,000 followers on Clubhouse the app that nobody gives a crap about anymore,

Jon Acuff:

Whatever that means. Whatever, I got a color. For me, Clubhouse or the next one, because by the time we release this, will probably be next one, like, Upside Down Red Rhino and we'll be like, "What it's huge in LA and they only let on certain people, but they just opened it up to humans like you." I think that's so fascinating that when somebody tells you you have to be on this, you ask them thoughtful questions and go well, why? And often the why is because everybody's doing it. Would you say that you tend to take a counter intuitive approach to if everybody's saying something you actually ask why?

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, I've always kind of been a why asker. I have to know why. And I had to know why as a kid and it drove my parents crazy as it does us all now as parents, but I should have done it more in business. But it was like, "Oh, well, everybody else knows a lot about business. They should be paying attention to this." And I remember even people in podcasting were like, "Oh, but Clubhouse, man. It's different than these other sort of apps like TikTok and stuff, because TikTok is video and like, you know, it's good for YouTubers, but Clubhouses like the TikTok of podcasting, like it's audio users". And I said, "You know, you're looking at audio users like this one big sort of clump group of people, just like people who are on YouTube, realized that it's not TV, I realized that podcasting is not Clubhouse." Now, no one right now would go "Oh, YouTube, TV, the same thing." No marketer worth his salt or creator worth the salt, whatever, equate the two. But people were like, "Oh, Clubhouse is, just like on demand, podcasting that's live." And I'm like, well, and recorded with AirPods. Oh, and not recorded at all, and has seven people who hadn't planned to be doing anything all talking at the same time. And you know duh, duh, duh. So it's not podcasting. But if you don't really get either space, they look the same. And I looked at podcasting, and I looked at Clubhouse, and I went, alright, I may be biased as a podcaster. And I do have my sunk cost invested in my podcast over the last 15 years. However, these are not the same thing. One has longevity. The other one is a very specific use case. And I think right now it's hyped, and we're in quarantine, for God's sake. Like, if you're in a lockdown, the idea of going on fun conference calls based around your hobbies doesn't sound like you're just going on a bunch of conference calls, because you're bored to tears. Now, once things open up, that app is frickin screwed.

Jon Acuff:

Well, and the idea of like, no one liked conference calls like a year ago. Like if somebody said to you, "Hey, you want to get on a conference call and kind of talk all over each other?" You'd be like, that doesn't sound like, am I getting paid?" But it's like you don't get paid either. So I love the way you think that way. Your background to me is really interesting. You're a lawyer by trade. You're working on Wall Street, which feels like the kind of career path someone is supposed to stay on. Like, it's the thing you do, and then your bio takes this really interesting turn. I'm going to read a section, my favorite section of your bio, it says you weren't interested in climbing In the corporate ladder, but you got curious about a partner who was never in the office. Dave spent his days at charity events and playing racquetball. How did he keep his job? So you start to notice, "Okay, I'm seeing this career path. I'm seeing people that are maybe working crazy hours, they're all doing the same thing. And there's one guy that feels like an outlier." And you get curious. What happens next and kind of your, you know, transition to go, "Okay, how am I going to shape my life differently?"

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, so I was working on Wall Street. I was a lawyer. You know, I went to a top law school. And I don't say that to be braggy. I say that, because why the hell does anyone quit that job? Which is the question that everyone was asking me when I quit that job. It's kind of like going to, it's not quite the same, doctors are much more educated than lawyers, in my opinion, you know, from school, a schooling perspective. But it's kind of like going to medical school, and then going,"Eh, I don't want to be a doctor" and everyone goes, "Are you an idiot? You have$168,000or if you're a doctor$300,000in loans, you've gone to school for like, 10 years, what do you mean, you don't want to do this?" And I had gone to law school and gotten a top job at the time on Wall Street. You know, you're making like 180 grand a year or something like that your first year out of, your second year, whatever out of college. People are like,"You're gonna quit because why? Like, you're crazy slash you're an idiot, period."

Jon Acuff:

Did your parents, were they supportive? Were they were they worried? Were they enthusiastic? Were they in the middle somewhere?

Jordan Harbinger:

They were definitely just in the middle. Like they, they kind of thought,"Okay, you don't need to do something you don't want to do. But also you should get some kind of job. And, you know, whatever, you'll land in your feet." They were pretty optimistic. But they weren't like "Go podcast. That's a thing." They were like, "No one listens to these by our own admission, it's 2007, 2008. Whatever. No one's listening to podcast, no one's doing any of this crap. Like, what are you talking about you're gonna like, try and do this full time?" And I had also I had a training company, it was like teaching some dating skills and stuff at the time. And so I was making like, okay money, but I was making 1/6 of what I would make at the law firm. And they're like, "Okay, well, you know, we're not going to pay your bills, your loans. But if you can figure it out, go for it. You're young, you got flexibility." And this is I realized now almost a metaphor slash actually just a small sample size of how people think about their lives. A lot of my lawyer buddies and non-lawyer buddies, for that matter, they were like, "You are in a spot where you have student loans, you have a good education, you have momentum. The safest thing you can do is stay a lawyer and continue to do that." And I was like, I know. And they're like,"Why would you not do that? What is wrong with you?" But now, those same people, not all, of course, but many of those same people go, "Wow, you got so lucky, leaving your job back then for podcasting and having it take off and you working really hard and doing this thing. And now you make more than the partners at the law firm where you started working." And I'm like, yeah, it was just pure luck. When all of you guys went and did the same thing that you recommended me to do, and you sat working in a job you didn't like for the next decade, and then quit because it sucks. And now you're doing some other thing that pays the bills that you're not passionate about. I left early, because I saw this coming. And I was dumb enough, slash gutsy enough to leave at that point and many other people were not. And I'm not saying like I'm special or a genius, but what I am saying is like, you have to be risk tolerant. And I got to thank a buddy of mine, who was also a lawyer because he also had done a clerkship and he'd gotten fired, which is not good. He got fired for sleeping in the judge's chambers, because he was a night owl. And they had him getting up and he fell asleep in the judge's chambers. And that was the last straw for her, federal judge. So he goes, "You know what, I love music. I got fired from this. No one's hiring until the next cycle. I gotta figure this out. I'm gonna play music at bars because I'm 27. If it's going to happen for me with music, now's the time." And I remember sort of rolling my eyes. And then I went, oh wait a minute. If he's going to do the music thing, it's just equally dumb for me to do the podcasting thing. But I have even more momentum because I'm on Sirius XM Satellite Radio, and I'm generating 1000s of dollars in sales on my training stuff using my podcast. So like, this is a slightly less crazy idea. Maybe I should just give it a go and see what happens. And then like, you know, fast forward 14 years, and here we are now. And I'm so glad that that happened. Holy cow.

Jon Acuff:

It feels like that was one of the transition moments you've had, it feels like there's been a couple of transition moments. You have this massive podcast, and then you need to rebuild, the reboot is what you call it. There's probably a lot of people listening to this right now that have gone through, rebuild, reboot moments, but especially coming out of the pandemic. What do you think it takes, like what are the keys to a good rebuild?

Jordan Harbinger:

The keys to a good rebuild for me were, and I guess it's not a cookie cutter solution, but for me, I had been building relationships for 10 plus years at that point, you know, maintaining connections, keeping my existing connections going using technology like a CRM system and habits to keep in touch with people for a long, long time. And that was a really In a school district you've never been to and have no good idea turned out in retrospect, you know. We say dig the well before you're thirsty. It's like a self help book from the 90s. Dig the well before you get thirsty. And that's important because nobody thinks they're gonna be thirsty. Or they think like, "Okay, when I write a book, I need these people to promote it." That's I don't have a book on my horizon. I don't need to do this. I was like, well, I better practice what I preach, because I'm teaching networking to all these people. And I always say dig the well before you get thirsty. So I should probably dig the well before I get thirsty. So that if people ask me what I'm doing, I can like point to habits. And I can develop this. And, you know, if you teach it and you're doing it, then you can iterate on the curriculum and with new things that you learn. So I was I was doing that. And then when I had to rebuild, I went, oh, I know, like, 1000s of people, hundreds of people in my own industry that I can reach out to for help with the rebuild. So I made phone calls all day, every day, I reached out to those people who were I had dug the well and created those relationships. So when I rebooted with the Jordan Harbinger show, I had, like gone, I had the ability to go on in the first year, I did go on, like 140 podcasts. And I had, like, dozens of people emailing the newsletter, and I had people sharing it on their social media, you know, friends that had real following on social media, tweeting it and sharing it and things like that, like people that don't promote businesses generally. Or if they do, it's like $50,000, to get them to do it. I was like, look, I'm screwed. I need your help. I'm in a hard place. And pretty much almost 100% of them were like, "Yeah, here's what I can d to help." And I realized th t that only happened because I h d this insurance policy that mon y could never buy, which is th s network that I had created a d maintained over the past decad. And so that was a major maj r wake up, I wouldn't say wake p call, reassurance that what I was doing was correct. A lot f people they put off networki g and relationships, because th y can't imagine when they wou d need it. My audience is pret y good about this. B t occasionally I'll say like, "H y, are you doing the six min te networking course that we ha e?" It's like this free course w ere I teach a lot of the drills and exercises. And occasiona ly, someone who's a nice person ill say something like, "No, I on't need that." And I'll go hmmm, what makes you think th t? And they'll go "No, no, no, I mean, I know it's probably gr at. But I'm a teacher. I don't need to network." It's tough to hear. Because what I'm think ng is what happens when you l se your job? What happens if ou meet somebody and you et married, and they have to m ve for their job, and now you h ve to find a new one? You re starting from z connection to, Right. What happens if you don't want to be a teacher anymore? Oh, good, you know, zero people in other industries that can help you, congratulations,

Jon Acuff:

Right. You're completely alone, you're on an island.

Jordan Harbinger:

You're on an island. And people think like,"Oh, I'm actually really good at networking." And I go, great. If your business imploded right now, or if you got laid off right now, who are the 15 people or so that you would reach out to for help? And they go, "Oh, you know, I have to get back to you on that." And I go, oh, really, you can't name a dozen, you can't name 10 people, right now that you're close to that would be able to help you if you hit a life altering, negative consequence or circumstance in your life? Maybe you're not as good at this as you think you are.

Jon Acuff:

It's a huge insurance policy.

Jordan Harbinger:

It is. Like I think a lot of people think waving to their neighbors in the yard at when they're taking out their garbage cans is networking or they think like, you know, "I know some people in my office. So I'm networking." That is only helpful. If you are trying to do something that is very narrow and niche. You need a very wide network full of people that you don't think you ever will need to help you in your own life. If you're an author, you do need to know the local library or whatever to pick up your book, obviously. But you also need to know the person who runs the Commonwealth club around you. Because what if you need to give a talk? You also need to know the kids in the neighborhood who build websites. Why? I'm an author, I don't need that. Well, maybe your website goes down and your publisher is not going to help you. And now you need a website and your book launches next week. Who are you going to call? You have no idea. It's gonna take you a week to get a proposal from someone online. You better have that kid over to your house the whole weekend making it in front of you.

Jon Acuff:

So good. I think a lot of people have a hard time with networking because they hear that word, and it's one of the things that I know you're amazing at because I've personally watched you do it for years. Do you think a lot of people hear that word and they think "I'm gonna have to throw business cards at people's face. That means I'm cheesy. I have to be a car salesman-y kind of person" like, that's part of why they're hesitant?

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, I think a lot of people, they don't like the idea of networking, and they don't feel like doing it. Because if you're not in a sales role, then you don't know that networking and relationship development is not like what used car salesmen do. So people think networking is glad handing and going "Oh, hey, what do you do? Jon, nice to meet you. Hey, look, if you ever need a financial planner to plan for your retirement, here's my business card!" And you hand them like this. tissue paper business card that you printed off on your own printer, and it smears as soon as they touch it, and then they throw it away. We don't like those people, because we know they're trying to get something from us. So nobody wants to become that person. Nobody decent wants to become that person. And so we go, Oh, I don't like networking, or I don't really think I need to do it, or I don't want to do it because I don't want to become that person. What we don't realize is, when I'm teaching networking, for example, what I'm teaching is, hey, look for people that you can help. And then help them and don't ask for anything in return. And the nice people go, "Wait a minute. So when somebody else needs a referral to the kid on my block who does websites, I refer that kid over and now that kid's super stoked, and the person who I've referred is super stoked, and I don't have to do anything, and I look good, and I'm not hurting anyone, and I'm not annoying anyone? And I'm building referral currency?" Like that's the big aha, that needs to happen. Because I always give this kind of example, if I'm at a party, and I need a IP lawyer to help look over a contract, I go to the punch bowl at the party. I walk in, I don't really want to be there. I just drove half an hour across town to park I don't want to go to this mixer, but I go up to the punch bowl. There's somebody there. I say "Hey, what do you do?" And they go, "I'm a graphic designer," and I go,"Oh, cool." And I don't need a graphic designer. So I'm looking over their shoulder. I have to sit through their spiel, I'm not really interested. I walk away and I go to somebody else. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you. What do you do?" And you say,"Oh, an author," and I go,"Whatever. I'm looking for a lawyer." I don't need this person. They don't know anyone who can help me. I'm killing time I excused myself to go to the bathroom. Rinse and repeat for an hour, at which point I leave and I go "These are dumb. I hate these mixers. I'm never doing this again." And I leave and I haven't even found a frickin entertainment lawyer or an IP attorney that can help me so it was a big waste of time. That's a bad networker. Now, a good networker, or someone who's good at relationship development goes to that same party goes to that punch bowl says "What do you do?" Person says "I'm a graphic designer." Good networker goes, "Oh, okay, interesting. What kind of clients do you work with?" "Oh, I work with small businesses, you know, anybody who needs assets for social media," and I go, "I know a ton of people that own small businesses, a lot of them probably already have graphic designers, but send me your portfolio and I'll see if there's anybody I know that's in my network that might be interested." And they go, "Wow, thanks!" They send you their portfolio. You notice it happens to be competently done. Now you've got somebody in your virtual Rolodex or in your CRM system that you know, is a good graphic designer or a talented graphic designer, and is looking for work, right? So you sort of put that a pin in that. Now when you meet another person at that party and they are an author, you go, "Hmm, well, I'm not really looking for that I'm looking for an IP attorney. But since you're not an IP attorney, I still want to find out what your books about what your launch is, like, what your strategy is." You know, and I'm doing this 1000s of times over the course of a decade. So now I've got 1000s of connections, all of whom are maybe people I should refer to one another, right? Maybe the web designer does need a graphic designer to do the graphic part of the website. So I connect those two, and they go into business together, or they work on a project together. All I did was make an email introduction. So everyone I met at that party was not only useful, but I was able to make them useful to each other. Whereas the bad networker walked out and went, "Wahhh, it's a waste of time, I never meet anyone good. Woe is me, I wasted all that money on gas and parking," right? So I'm able to find opportunity, and a good relationship or networker is able to find opportunity in every relationship and make it useful for themselves and for other people, even if that use is only developing referral currency or social capital. And bad relationship development people are only looking at what's in front of them, what's in it for them. And if the answer is nothing, they're pissed off, and they're disappointed and they move on.

Jon Acuff:

It's funny you say that because today I had another interview with an author for my podcast. And his last book sold a million copies. And he's super interesting. And I've been on your podcast. So I was like,"Oh, you need to talk to my friend Jordan. Like Jordan has an amazing podcast. Like, I can connect you guys." And it's that kind of thing. Like, that didn't cost me, it'll cost me an email, I'll email you after the interview and say, "Hey, here's a buddy that you haven't interviewed before. His book blew up. He's super fascinating. I think you guys would like each other." And then that's a connection. And so again, that didn't cost me anything other than going, oh, I really like Jordan. I really like this other person, let me connect them, and let them figure out what happens. That's fun. Like I walk away from that having fun.

Jordan Harbinger:

It is fun and it's simple. But here's the thing, a lot of people listening go, "I already do that." But the thing is, you don't really already do that. You've done it once or twice in the past year. You should be trying to do that two to three times a week. And you should track it. Because if you don't track it, what you do is you go, "Ah, Jon and Jordan, I already kind of know this stuff. I do that." You did it once in 2020 before the pandemic, but you haven't done it since, if you're honest with yourself. You know, you've done it once every three months. You build referral currency from doing that. Bravo. You did a good thing. Why didn't you do it like every week? "Oh, well, I only do it when something really strikes me as an obvious fit." Why aren't you thinking about it every week so that you find more obvious fits? Because you need to be working those muscles in your brain and going, "Okay, I just met this author, he's doing podcasts, he just did my podcast, you know, I should probably refer him to other qualified and competent podcast hosts that can help him promote his book." But you don't do that unless you stop and think about it. And go, "Oh, I need to make one introduction this week, because I've only done two. You know, what, who have I talked to today? I mean, Jon. Alright, yeah, I'll introduce this other guy." You have to come up with like reps. It's like going to the gym and going, "Yeah, I guess I'm going to work out." What are you going to do chest, legs? "I don't know. I'm just going to like, see whatever machine looks kind of like, fun. And then I'm going to

Jon Acuff:

Just feel it. Feel it.

Jordan Harbinger:

Oh, okay, cool. How many reps are you going to do? And at what weight?"I don't know, I'm just gonna put it on, like, whatever weight looks good. I'm gonna do like, however, whatever number looks good." How do you think that person's physical fitness results are, right? They're garbage. And they've been using the same weight and the same machine for five years. They've never done anything that looks like results, because they don't track anything. You know, for me, I'm doing three introductions a week, even if it's like, "Oh my gosh, I have one more, and I've no clue who it's going to be. How am I going to do" I have to stretch my brain and go, okay, really, I got to find somebody. Now I'm introducing like a Russian chess grandmaster to somebody who's a social media influencer. And I'm like, "Look, this is kind of a weird intro. But you talked to me about chess, and I asked you to relate chess to life. And you had this really interesting principle. You should make a video about that and put it on your social media." And they'll go, "Hmm, maybe. Not a bad idea." Now you've just made something for them or with them. They both say, "Wow, that Jordan guy, he's an okay dude, he just introduced us and we had this thing pop off. And all I did was an email intro." But if you're waiting for like, the obvious introduction to literally like land in your lap, or be right in front of your face, like smacking you, you're only going to do one intro every two months. And then you're going to go, "Oh, I already do all this stuff." Well, then why are my results better than yours? Because I have better systems,

Jon Acuff:

Because you did three reps a week, times 52.

Jordan Harbinger:

Right. Instead of one every two months. And yeah, if you're a runner and you jog once every two months, you're not going to be in shape for that marathon.

Jon Acuff:

So for you when you say tracking and systems, what does that look like? So you know, are you a pen and paper guys? Is it like "No, I have, I love Infusionsoft or like, this is my jam"? You know, give me a little like, peek behind the curtain of the systems.

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, so all the drills are in the six minute networking thing. I'm not trying to plug that I'm just saying like, if people are like, "Wait, I gotta write this down." Don't bother. Go to JordanHarbinger.com/course, it's free. You don't have to like enter your credit card. It's not one of those scams. So one of the drills that's in there, every day, I tell people, and I do this the same as me, I flip my phone up and I go to the bottom of my text messaging app. So like the dead threads where it's like, "Hey, person, I can't remember whose name isn't saved in my phone. Good hanging out today after conference I haven't been to in three years, four years. Stay in touch!" No further messages in there. I never should have and I'm like, oh, crap. So I'll send a message to four of those people. I call it connect four and I'll pick four of those like dead threads or like weak and dormant ties. It's like, oh, yeah, this is a woman that I met who was a swimmer. I met her at a party. She's an Olympic swimmer. And I like never, I told her that my wife and I should take her around the Bay Area, because she just moved here. And I like never followed through on that. Oh, oops. You know, so I'll say like, "Hey, how are you acclimating to the Bay? Like, what's going on? Here's what's going on in my life. I just moved, there's a picture of my kid." And they'll go, "Oh, my God," like three out of four times? "Oh, my gosh, I haven't heard from you in forever. What's going on? Yeah, I never saved your number. But I do remember you, you know what, what else is new?" And you get an update from these people, they get an update from you. And now you're top of mind, but also they're top of mind. So this is a real example. I sent a message to that woman. She was swimmer in the Olympics. And she said,"Yeah, I'm working at Visa, but my contract is up. So I'm looking for something else." And I said, Oh, okay, what are you looking for? "Oh, I would love to get into HR at an IT company or something like that." Okay. I know, people who work in HR at IT companies. What are you looking at Google, you looking at Facebook, you're looking at Microsoft up in Seattle? What are you thinking? And she goes,"Yeah, I mean, anywhere would be great. I have like no leads right now." So now, I'm in the process of introducing her to those people, because I decided to randomly open my phone at 10 o'clock in the morning and do my connect four drill. Now. What do you think she's gonna think about me if she gets a freakin job at Google as a result of that?

Jon Acuff:

Right. Yeah, she's gonna think "I can't wait to figure out how to do something awesome for Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger:

For this guy. And even if she doesn't get a job from those people. And she just talks to them and she finds out what the job is really like or that she's not a fit or that they're not hiring, but somebody else is. She owes me one big time and by all accounts, she's going to be happy that I did that. Now, that would never have happened without the connect four drill. And that's why I also say like, the opportunities are always over the horizon. If you're looking for those obvious intros, not that they're bad, like I appreciate you introducing me to the author who you thought was fascinating. That's an obvious one. It's like a low hanging fruit. But if you're not mining for gold in your contacts list, well, you're never going to dig any of it up.

Jon Acuff:

And it's there. It's just waiting for you. And I, again, I've seen you do this so many times. It's so fascinating to me. And I think it's one of the reasons you're so great at your podcasts. You're curious about people, you're curious about helping people. And I think that comes through in the interviews, I want to shift a little bit because your podcast is massive. It's 11 million downloads per month. It's really fun. I've been on it a couple times. What do you think, if somebody is listening to this right now, and they're, you know, they want to start a podcast? What are the things you tell people that are on the edge of "Okay, I'm thinking about starting a podcast."

Jordan Harbinger:

I would say one of the number one things about podcasting is don't start a podcast thinking you're gonna monetize it and make a bunch of money. I don't think many people do that. But I know that a lot of people do kind of come with the delusion, they buy those courses from these like influencers that say, "Hey, I made a million dollars a year podcasting. It's awesome, I can show you how to scale." And those people are like making their million dollars selling podcasting courses and not podcasting. So it's disingenuous. I've been podcasting for going on 15 years, or 14 and a half years, whatever it is. And I don't think we made that much money from it, other than selling products and services. But you know, as far as monetizing the show, it took like, years to do. And that's problematic. You know, if you're coming into this thinking, it's it's kind of like the people who go and this is a very apt analogy, people right now, if you live in Ohio, and you fly to LA, and you go, yeah, I'm gonna be the next Vin Diesel. I mean, or The Rock, you know, whichever.

Jon Acuff:

One of the two.

Jordan Harbinger:

You're probably delusional, right? Statistically speaking, you're delusional, but somehow, some way, people don't think, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna start a podcast and I'm gonna bring it up to this like six or seven figure level." You have a better chance of going and being the next Vin Diesel. Like, statistically speaking, you actually have a better chance of going to Hollywood and making it big, than you do have becoming a highly paid creator on the internet. There are actually less, percentage-wise, of people who try and succeed at that.

Jon Acuff:

There's way more podcasts started every year, then there are people on a bus to LA, going, "I'm going to be the next Vin Diesel" yet competition wise, you're 100% right. So for somebody that wants to do it, I think one of the things that comes through on your podcast is your prep. You can tell that there's been significant prep with the guests. What's what's your prep process like?

Jordan Harbinger:

Okay, so this is where I'm sort of able to out compete other podcasters. And this, it's funny, because people go, "Oh, you know, you have a gift in this area" some people will say, and I, you know, I appreciate that. That's really nice of them. But what the truth is, I have a lot of experience in this area, you know, decade and a half. But also, if you're not particularly funny, and you're not particularly talented, you can outwork everyone. And that's what worked for me on Wall Street and in law school. Like there were people were ways smarter than me, both in law school and Wall Street and in college for that matter. When I was in high school, I could just like walk into the geometry test and go like, "Oh, crap, we have a test today. Hey, Tim, let me see your notes because I don't take any. Oh, right. Yeah, something rhombus, whatever," you know, take the test and B+, A-, cool. That was my life in high school. But then you get to college. And it's like, oh, there's a lot of smart people here at the University of Michigan, I can't really, a what's graded on a curve, I can't just sort of like roll in, figure it all out. Like the professors have seen this movie before. And there's a lot of people who think they can do that. And there's a lot of people who study because they know they can't. So I went"Alright, what sort of camp am I in? Am I in the I'm so smart I don't need to study camp or am I in the study your ass off because other kids are smarter than you can't but I had to be honest with myself. And so when I'm podcasting, I go, okay, am I so hilarious that I can put a mic on in front of me and I'm just like cracking jokes and in the zone and super funny and educated? No. So I read the whole book. I watch all their talks from the guest. I look for angles that haven't been explored before. I listened to three, four other interviews that they've done that are from respectable interviewers or journalists. And I go, Okay, what themes that they explore? What stories did they tell that were entertaining that I want to get? What things did that journalist not handle well? Where are the missed opportunities? You know, I look for that. I put that all in a Google doc. It's probably like five, six pages of notes for an hour long show. And I leave it for like a week. And then the morning before the show, I come back to that document and read it again. And I go Do I have any questions about my notes? Okay, if I do, type it out, highlight it. Highlight the stories in blue, highlight the important stuff in green, highlight the drills or exercises, if any, in pink, highlight this stuff that's kind of boring now that I'm looking at it again in gray, so grayed out. And then anything that I think I can put in the intro with a close like I don't have to ask them about it. I can just give it as background in the beginning of the show myself, highlight that an orange. You know, and then I'm asking questions about my questions and I'm putting those in bold. Now I've got like, again, five, six pages of notes. I'm cutting and pasting, "Oh, this should go earlier in the show, this should probably go later. Oh, this sort of matches with that. Let me ask right after that, because it's related." You know, move everything around. And then at the end, I've got an outline of a show that I don't follow to a T, because conversations don't work like that. But it's pretty damn close to what I want, and what I think I'm going to get. And as the show goes on, I'm still, in real time, highlighting things in yellow that I've said already. Moving, cutting, pasting, scratching things out that we kind of covered. Scratching things out that aren't relevant anymore, given the thing that the guest just said. You know, I'm doing all that in real time. But all of that preps probably like 10 hours per guest.

Jon Acuff:

Per guest. That's amazing.

Jordan Harbinger:

But I also know that like, I've heard journalists say things like,"Oh, yeah, I did a bunch of prep for this. I spent, like 45 minutes prepping for a 15 minute interview," and I'm like, okay, you know, that's all. That's it. But if you think about it, it makes sense, right? Like, if you're gonna do a 15 minute interview, 45 minutes. For me, I would spend like three hours to do that. But there's a diminishing return because you don't have enough time. But if I have an hour and 15 minutes, you don't want to go, "Uhhh, so I'm ind of out of ideas now, Kobe B yant," you know, like, "maybe I ll hit you back later, when I ve done more of the work." You now, it doesn't work like tha.

Jon Acuff:

It's one shot. One shot. In our interview, you brought up a story about Moby and Eminem that I know wasn't part of the outline, but it worked so perfectly. What's another story that you find yourself, you know, it can be you interviewed a celebrity it could be a scientist said something to you, Tony Hawk said something, where it's a story that when you get together with friends, you're like, "You're not going to believe what this person said or the way they looked at life." Like I interviewed Greg Sankey, the SEC Commissioner the other day, and one of the things that he said that stuck out to me was the way he reads books as he highlights, highlights, and then types all the notes. And eventually, he was too busy so he paid his high school daughters to type up the notes. And he said they accidentally got one of the best leadership educations because they were typing up the best parts of the best books. And he paid him five bucks. And I thought, okay, that's a great thing I'll take forward in my own life. What's a story like that? Or whether it's, you know, a bit of wisdom that you said,"Wow, I keep talking about this when I'm with friends."

Jordan Harbinger:

Hmmm. Yeah, it's hard to say cuz I usually keep almost everything in the show. But there are obviously some experiences that you can't really get unless you're super prepared. So like, when I went to interview, Howie Mandel, he gave us a tour of his office, was super nice, super welcoming. But then after the show, he's like, "Wow, you like really did a bunch of research for this. That was really something" and I go, "Yeah, you know, I have a lot of questions about everything." And he goes, "Well, do you have anything else that you didn't ask?" And I was like,"Well, during the show, when you're judging America's Got Talent, you know, how do you decide to do the golden buzzer or whatever?" And he goes, "Did you see the show last night?" and I go, "Actually, I didn't because I was in a hotel. And like, I usually stream it and I couldn't get it to work." And oh, and he goes "Here. Come here." And he goes, like, he gets his assistant to like, set up the show from the night before on the TV. And we watched America's Got Talent with Howie Mandel and he went through his entire, like decision making process and what he's looking for, while watching the show in real time on the couch in his office. And me and Jen, my wife, and my producer, and my photographer who was there with me, we're like, wow, you can't buy this. And if you did, it would be like a charity auction where it costs $100,000 for you to sit with the judges of America's Got Talent and go through an episode of the show, and ask questions in real time and be like, "Wow, that was so interesting. Like, what are you looking for?" Like, "Oh, I just love this and this." You know, and we did that. And then, at the end of the interview, at the end of the experience, I kind of felt bad because I was like, wow, we came in for like an hour and we've definitely spent like four hours here. And I go, "Hey, man, you've been really generous with your time. Thank you so much. I'll let you get back to your day." And he goes, "Oh, no, I don't have anything else to do today." And he just gets in his car and leaves. And I was like, okay, note to self, I'm going to be that cool and generous if I ever even get remotely close to like the level of Howie Mandel, cuz he was just like enjoying it. You know, he wasn't like"I'm busy. You said an hour. This is ridiculous." He was just like, "No, I'm cool. I would have gone home at 11am. But you know, like, this is the afternoon for me."

Jon Acuff:

It sounds like his life has margin. He had a life that a Jordan conversation could bleed into three hours, four hours. How do you structure your week? He said 10 hours per guest. Not that there's anything like an average week. I hate when people say what's your average day? Because sometimes they're looking for like, what's your morning routine? I've seen you write about that. Like that doesn't work for everybody. Where are you chunking your time in an average week?

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, I mean, in the mornings, I typically will do things that require a lot of energy. Like all answer a bunch of fan mail. I have to be in a good mood and be energized to do that. You don't want to be answering fan mail when you're like tired, bored. What do you want punk? You know You have to be like, Oh, hey, thanks for writing in really happy about it. I do like a lot of phone calls and meetings and stuff because I kind of have to be on. But that's only Monday. Like other days, I do all my shows and all my media in the morning, which people go, Why do you do that? And I'm like, Well, I want to come across well. I want to do, of course, if I'm recording my own show, I have to be like primetime like rested, caffeinated, fed, and ready to go. I can't be on my 2:30 sort of 3pm wind down, you know, talking kind of hurts, and it's, you know, tiring. I can't be doing that, like, I stopped doing that stuff around 2pm pacific time, which is like 15 minutes from now, you know, that's why we scheduled this when we did. And then in the afternoons, I just sort of read, walk around, you know, I've already done my workout in the morning, I've already done some other stuff in the morning, usually, on a given day, but I read, you know, I just read, like, all afternoon, I might do a couple emails like today, I'm a little behind. So I've got like, here's Memorial Day weekend, I gotta like plow through the crap that came in over then, make sure that people aren't waiting on me. But generally, I just spend two, three hours a day just reading, you know, just doing prep for the show. Researching, because that stuff's kind of easy. And, you know, it's not a lot of brainpower to sit around watching, like documentaries and taking notes or reading a book and take notes or walking through the neighborhood and like listening to somebody talk about gun running, or like a talk about psychology. Because I'm not trying to necessarily think in that moment. What am I going to ask this person? I'm mostly just taking in input in the beginning phases of the prep. If I have a question. I'll write it down, of course. But I'm not like, Oh, I gotta, what should I asked him. I'm just like, here's what they're talking about. I'm doing input. So it's a lot harder for me to do output than it is for me to do input. Probably true for literally everyone, I would imagine. You know, so if you're a writer, you probably want to write in the morning, you probably want to do that. You know, you don't want to like write at 7pm when you're like,"Oh, the kids are finally in bed, I have two brain cells left. Let me write a chapter of a book." Like that's not gonna work, right?

Jon Acuff:

No. That's not gonna be a good chapter. It's gonna be a terrible chapter. I have to do. It's like, 7am I have to be at the coffee shop where I write, locked and loaded, ready to go. And then I can do phone calls in the afternoon because I don't have to be as on in the same way. One last question that I'm always curious about hearing experts talk about experts. What's somebody you looked up to as an interviewer where you go,"Oh, okay, I love the way they approach interviews, I can tell there's a huge prep process," or they flow the conversation in a way that's really specific, but it doesn't feel structured, who are some interviewers you look up to?

Jordan Harbinger:

So I take pieces from a bunch of people, because I don't love specific styles from any of these people. Like I love their style, but I don't, not for me, I guess it's what I mean. So, like Terry Gross from Fresh Air is a really good interviewer. I don't know if you're familiar with her. She's great. But one of her things is "I never interject my personality or my opinion, because it's about the guests." And I'm like, cool. You lost me there. But the rest of her stuff, she does so much prep. She reads the book. I've talked to her about her prep before she's like, "I read the book myself, I've you know, devour all their materials. I come up with the outline." Like that's all like Terry Gross type stuff, but she never puts her own personality in there. And I go, okay, that works when you're Terry Gross of NPR. She was the only game in town for a lot of her interviews for like, decades. You know, now there's 3 million podcasts. If I'm trying to set myself apart with the Jordan Harbinger show, the last thing I want to do is not put my personality into the mix.

Jon Acuff:

You better bring all of Jordan. Yeah, not pieces.

Jordan Harbinger:

Exactly. So I'm putting a ton of personality into the mix. And so looking at Larry King, he doesn't put personality into the mix, you know, rest in peace. He didn't put personality in the mix as much. But he brought his own life into the program and advice that he used to give me was, you know, don't try and be like a newsman. Don't try and be as square you know, talk like a normal person. Which it sounds like non advice right now. But when he started it was probably like 1955. And the people on the radio then were like, "Today, it's gonna be sunny outside, there's a wind blowing in from the southeast. The Nazis have invaded Belgium." You know, like, that's what those guys were talking about. They weren't like, "So I was talking to my wife the other day, and she said..." No one would have ever said that on radio

Jon Acuff:

Fourth wall. Forget it.

Jordan Harbinger:

And Larry King was the guy who was like, so I got a kid, right? And he brings this up to me, and he says, so he brings this like Brooklyn personality into the thing. But he also said "Don't add too much of your personality because you're there every week." And I was like, Alright, I'm gonna, you lost me on that. Right? But Larry does no prep, none.

Jon Acuff:

No prep?

Jordan Harbinger:

No prep.

Jon Acuff:

Which is why he didn't know if Seinfeld had been canceled.

Jordan Harbinger:

It doesn't work. Like it worked for him because it was novel for him to bring in his personality and his life. It didn't work because what he should have done is prep and also do that in my opinion. But what you know who am I to judge? He was this successful guy. So I bring in Terry Gross's prep, Larry King sort of breaking the fourth wall, but I also want somebody else who's going to add in a bunch of their personal anecdotes. And so that's where I think, as much as I sort of don't like a lot of the stuff that he does, Joe Rogan is really good at sort of bringing in his own life and his own examples and things like that in relating things. I think it's a bit of a knucklehead move to not know anything about a subject and form a really strong opinion on it, that he does that way too much. He also interviews a lot of people that should be given no time of day and gives them a huge platform. So I try to be more responsible than that. But again, look, super successful guy, a lot of people are gonna be "Well if you don't like Rogen, f- you Jordan," I've heard that before. But it's not that I don't like him, you know, I just choose to be a little bit more responsible in my delivery. So I bring those elements from a lot of these interviewers, and I create the Jordan Harbinger show based on that. Has a lot of my personality, I talk plenty, but I also let the guest talk. But I also want practicals, and things like that as if they're teaching something. But I'm also well prepared, and I know what I'm going to get out of them. I'm not meandering. Right? So like, that's the whole idea behind it, I think a good interviewer, or I think a good podcaster should be taking elements from people that they really enjoy, and then adding their own style in. And but I don't know if I had my own style until like a decade in and I think a lot of people, they try and copy someone, and then they go, "Oh, I shouldn't copy anyone, I should just be myself" and like, let me sort of stop you right there. You probably shouldn't just be yourself, at least not for the first 10 years. Because if you decide to just be yourself, that means you're sort of saying naturally, I'm as good as I need to be. And this is not like a blue ribbon participation trophy kind of industry, it's unlikely to be the case that you yourself, are naturally going to be good at this. It's just not likely. It's not likely with anything, it's certainly not likely in the entertainment industry.

Jon Acuff:

100%. Same with writing books. I would say the same thing. That there's, you're remixing your voice, you're finding your voice. Like I've just finished book seven, and I'm working on book eight. And there's parts of my voice that I'm just now leaning into that I certainly didn't have book one. And I'd have to go Okay, where am I in this? So my wife will say that. I mean, she walked in the like during this book process and said, she read a chapter and said, "Do you want feedback or compliments?" I thought that is such a good question.

Jordan Harbinger:

Brilliant. so true. But you know, Avicii, you know who that is? The famous, famous artist DJ. So people go"Oh, well, artists, you know, they always they're so original, and they're innovative and duh, duh, duh." Avicii spent years, literally just copying the, like hit songs that he heard. He would write the exact same tracks, and he would maybe add a little bit of his own spin on it. But he would literally just try and remake the track using the instruments. That's how he learned how to use all the software, all the effects. Hear what sounds good. So because if look, if this song is a hit, it's a hit for a reason. So he would remake the whole thing. And he did that every day with a new track. And it's took him hours and hours and hours. And he did it with every single one. And then he ran out of music that he wanted to remake and he started making his own. But he already had the DNA and the blueprint and the feel. And he knew how to use all the tools and the creator systems and the same setups and instruments and gear, software, everything that all these hit artists were using because all he did was imitate them for years.

Jon Acuff:

When Hunter S. Thompson typed the entire Great Gatsby because he wanted to feel what it felt like to write a classic book.

Jordan Harbinger:

That might be weird, but like there's a reason for that, you know, so you should be imitating people that are successful. And then you go"Maybe I don't like that Larry doesn't practice like prep at all. What if I prep a little and I'm doing the Larry King thing? Oh, cool. What if I prep like Terry Gross and I'm doing the Larry King thing and I throw a little bit of adding my personality and like such and such comedian on their podcast?" Now you've got a unique style. You know, I think Austin Kleon calls it like steal like an artist right?

Jon Acuff:

That's exactly, brilliant, brilliant book. So Jordan, this has been a blast for me. I want to give people a chance to follow your podcast. You know the networking and I think there's gonna be a lot of people that go "Wait a second I'm not naturally great at that." So where can people find you if they want to follow up with you?

Jordan Harbinger:

Sure. JordanHarbinger.com is my website. But of course you know look, the Jordan Harbinger show H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, that's the podcast I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. I answer my messages there. The course is of course also on the website but JordanHarbinger.com/course is where you can find the course. It's free. You don't I don't need your credit card. None of that crap. But look, I would just love it people check out the Jordan Harbinger show and tell me what they think. Because I'd like to think there's something there for everyone. And, you know, that's how that's how I pay the bills, so.

Jon Acuff:

It's an awesome show. It's an awesome show.

Jordan Harbinger:

Thank you very much.

Jon Acuff:

If you want to start with an episode Jordan and I recorded not too long ago. It was a blast. Yeah, definitely check out the podcast. Jordan, I love that I get to be a guest on your show. I'm honored that you came on mine. I know you get asked constantly to be on other people's shows. So thank you so much for joining me today, man.

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, thanks for having me on, man. It's good to see you.

Jon Acuff:

Hey thanks. You're listening today wasn't Jordan a blast? Didn't he deliver on so many practical, real things you can do around the topic of networking? I loved his ideas. So please make sure you subscribe to my podcast if you liked episodes like this. And if you've got 60 seconds to spare, or 90 if you're feeling verbose, as it as it were, I would love a review. With new podcasts like mine. Your feedback and reviews is critical. So thank you so much for doing that. I'll see you next week and remember, all it takes is a goal. This episode of the podcast was brought to you by Medi-Share. ext JON, J-O-N to 474747 for ore information. Huge thank y u to Medi-Share for sponsoring t. J-O-N t

Producer:

Thanks for listening. To learn more about the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast and to get access to today's show notes, transcript, and exclusive content from Jon Acuff, visit Acuff.me/podcast. Thanks again for joining us. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast.