ATG 24: A Masterclass in leadership with SEC Commissioner Greg Sankey

What would you do if you were the leader of the most successful college sports league in the entire world when COVID hit?

That’s the exact question the Commissioner of the SEC, Greg Sankey, faced. Last year when the pandemic forced the world to shut down, all eyes were on Greg and his team as they figured out how to navigate the college football season in the midst of chaos. He joins me for a conversation about how to lead through a crisis and how to keep learning as you go. No matter how big or small, if you hold any leadership position in your life, this episode is a masterclass that will encourage you to be the best leader you can be.

Books mentioned in this episode:
Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke
Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
The Life You’ve Always Wanted by John Ortberg
Be Quick But Don’t Hurry by Andy Hill
Ecclesiastes, a book of the Bible
Do Over by Jon Acuff

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Order Soundtracks, Jon's newest book available wherever you find quality books!

Transcript

Jon Acuff: 0:01

Hey everyone, and welcome to the All it Takes is a Goal podcast. The best place in the entire world, including, and this is important, including all of Canada, to learn how to build new thoughts, new actions and new results. I'm your host, Jon Acuff and today I've got an amazing interview with Greg Sankey, the Commissioner of the SEC, that's the Southeastern Conference, not the Securities and Exchange Commission. So many of my friends when I said I was talking to the Commissioner of the SEC, were like, "Good for you, you must know a lot about, like regulations and finance." I don't. I really don't. It makes no sense that I'd be talking to the Commissioner of the Securities and Exchange Commission. I had to look up what that stood for. But Greg, that's a completely different story. He is amazing. This interview is a masterclass on leading through chaos. And his approach to reading books is worth the entire listen. I've been telling friends about what I learned in this episode for weeks, and I can't wait for you to hear it. Now, if you're listening today, on June 14, or really, any time that week, make sure you check out the Beyond Perfect Challenge I'm doing right now. It's a free five-day challenge about what it takes to win the race against perfectionism. I'm teaching five lessons, an hour long each day. And if you can't join us live, don't worry, we'll send you a free replay so you can watch it on your own time. You can sign up right now at Acuff.me/Challenge. That's W-W-W dot Acuff dot M-E slash challenge. We'll link it in the show notes. And, as always, today's episode is sponsored by Medi-Share. Have you guys ever had buyer's remorse? You know that feeling of intense regret because the thing you thought you just had to have was only something used once or twice? For me it was the time I bought a really expensive road bike because I thought I was going to get into cycling. I proceeded to hang it on the wall in my garage and feel ashamed for six months. Well, I know some of you are experiencing buyer's remorse right now for something much more frustrating. You know what I'm talking about. It's the healthcare you rushed to get during open enrollment last December. Well, I have some good news for you. You've probably heard me talking about our main sponsor for this podcast, Medi-Share. And these guys have the answer to healthcare buyer's remorse. Check this out, members of Medi-Share save up to 50% or more per month on their health care costs. They say the typical family saves up to $500 per month. And here's the best part, you can become a member at any time. So that means it isn't too late to ditch your buyer's remorse and switch to a more affordable health care that will save you money and help you sleep better at night. If this is your first time you're hearing about Medi-Share, it is the best alternative to health insurance that allows you to share the burden of medical bills, offers access to 900,000 plus health care providers, and has a proven 25 year track record. Plus in addition to saving hundreds per month, as a member of Medi-Share, you will also have access to free telehealth and free telecounseling. You won't find that with any traditional health insurance provider. Guys, it only takes two minutes to see how much you could save. Go investigate that for yourself and your family at Medi-Share.com/Jon. That's Medi-Share.com/Jon. Remember Jon doesn't have an H in it. So it's a M-E-D-I, that's Medi, share, S-H-A-R-E dot com slash J-O-N. Alright, let me share a little about Greg's bio. Greg Sankey became the eighth commissioner of the Southeastern Conference on June 1, 2015, and immediately embarked on a journey to build upon the SEC's recognized success, strong foundation and rich traditions. That's pretty amazing. He's only the eighth Commissioner. Now prior to joining the SEC staff, Sankey was commissioner of the Southland Conference for nearly seven years. He joined the Southland Conference staff in 1992, where he served as both Assistant and Associate Commissioner before he was named Commissioner in 1996. At the age of 31, a native of Auburn, New York, Sankey earned his Master's degree from Syracuse University and his undergraduate degree from the State University of New York College at Cortland. Sankey and his wife Kathy reside in Birmingham, Alabama, and have two adult daughters, Hannah and Mariah, and here's my conversation with the man himself, Greg Sankey.

Greg Sankey: 4:23

So Greg, the first question seems very obvious. You just led the SEC through one of the most stressful years of our generation and it's not an exaggeration to say that from a sports perspective, a lot of the country was watching to see what the SEC would do with the football schedule and COVID. As a leader, how do you even begin to take on a challenge like that? Like what are the early steps that you go "Okay. This is something so massive to wrap my hands around. What do I do?" The good news is you don't have a choice. And if you had a choice and you realize what you're about to step into, people may, you know, veer left or right, rather than trying to continue forward. It's really interesting that the best metaphor I had is that we were building the bridge as we cross the river and writing the instruction manual with one hand as we were doing so and that's really what happened. The effort became to change your operating rhythm, which facilitated much more timely communication, and effective decision making, and actually try to plot out from a prediction standpoint, the big events or the big decisions really, that were going to have to take place. So that when it came time to make a decision, nobody was really surprised it was in front of them. And when when we shut down back in March of 2020, everything was new, everything was big, and everything was a surprise, and you just, we can't function like that. So it became very much make it up as you go. I think I have to be honest about that. Never quit trying, but also try to figure out what was going to be out there ahead. And is there a way to work through the issues and then a lot of sitting catatonic on my front porch wondering "What in the world that I get myself into?"

Jon Acuff: 6:13

Yeah, so the operating rhythms is an interesting phrase. When you say that, are you saying, "Okay, we were used to a certain type of rhythm. Things took this amount of time, or there were this amount of layers or steps, and we had to kind of triage that and go, okay, we need to go faster, or we need to remove the layers." Is that what you mean by operating rhythm?

Greg Sankey: 6:32

Exactly. And we had a cadence of meetings, a cadence of communications, a cadence of decision making, that was pretty normal. I mean, like decades of the rhythm. And quite rapidly when we stopped in March of 2020, we were literally scheduled to be in that rhythm of meetings on a Wednesday and Thursday with the directors of our athletics programs, and then the presidents and chancellors of our universities. And so that was the end of normal, and we had to meet on Friday. Well, we didn't call meetings with presidents with 24 hours notice, because they're very busy people. Then we had to meet again, Tuesday, and then we had to meet again, Wednesday. And then we got into this like daily rhythm for a while and we realized we were wearing everybody out. That was counterproductive. Then we pivoted to three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and I was joking with a member of my staff, what that meant is you had no weekends, because because you spent the whole weekend trying to prepare for Monday's meeting. And it really, you know, ended up in that kind of granular analysis that it was all about, how do you make decisions, but really, before the decisions came, how were we going to communicate? And I'll just offer this, when we stop, one of my statements that didn't withstand the test of time very well is we're going to break into a bunch of different small groups, they can talk about the problems in their area, and then bring it to the bigger group. And after the very first issue where we argued in a small group, and then argued in a group of 14, which is number of our athletics programs and universities, I said, "Look, no more small group, or if we're going to have a fight, we're all we're going to have a fight together, we'll get to it then."

Jon Acuff: 8:12

we're not going to do sub layers of fights to then build it to a bigger fight. Let's just go ahead and have the fight here. It feels like there's a lot of teams and companies that learn some really interesting efficiency, maybe something that took six months now took six weeks, but they can't run at pandemic speed forever. So they land somewhere in the middle they go, "Here's what we used to do. Here's what we did for, you know, the crux of it." Do you think teams are going to land back in the middle like, with their speed, with their communications, with their planning?

Greg Sankey: 8:42

That's a much better way to ask the question I'm typically asked, which is"What did you learn that will change how you operate?" And that's really simplistic. So I learned that if we had a football game scheduled on a Saturday, on Monday, I could make some phone calls and reshuffle the whole deck, I can do that. That's not going to be a lesson I carry forward because that's not really productive. It's not going to happen. Works in a pandemic, doesn't work in real life. But I think the forms of communication, so the hesitancy to just dive into video conference, we may arguably made a decades of progress of virtual meetings and virtual connection because they were naturally going to be resistant. I think that can help inform better communication, and better decision making probably to a point because I still believe human interaction in person in a room, over dinner, around coffee, whatever it may be, is enormously helpful to an organization. And then the fact that we can actually manage through an un-envisioned crisis. And we actually have those all of the time. They just kind of come and go. And they're really the same thing. Well, we ended up dealing with this extended crisis where you actually had to work through every day, different elements. And I actually think the resilience and grit of that experience will be beneficial for everyone involved, and I mean that as broadly as possible, for years

Jon Acuff: 10:12

I think that's completely true. So to jump back to come. to like a broader question. So you've gone through this big leadership moment, for you as a leader, how have you learned leadership? So would you say that your foundation was "I had a parent that really showed me the ropes. I had a teacher. I had a series of jobs along the way." Because I think there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that go, "Okay, one of my goals is I want to be a better leader, that could be a leader of my family, and could be a leader of a church or a company, could be at self-leadership. I want to get in shape." Your leadership background, where would you say, these are the moments where I really started to learn what it takes to be a leader.

Greg Sankey: 10:49

Let me begin with like, the reality of I'll say, last summer, when the crisis was peaking for us in decision mak ng. The number of times I spe t questioning my leadership and my ability to lead and what is eadership. Like, you're not sup osed to be in these jobs and do hat kind of thing. I lis ened to two CEOs interviewed as was driving to work, and nei her of them so these were big corporate CEOs said "Well, I too a step back and questioned whe her I can actually do this." I t ink that should be like the nex leadership book, because it' never ever discussed. And I tru y believe, even before this exp rience, if there's not time for introspection and sel-analysis and questioning, in healthy way, then one is not as effective a leader as the can be. Now, where did that com from? I'll go back to a mom nt. My freshman year in col ege, I went to a college the tim was studying electrical eng neering, and I could barely plu in my headphones to join thi podcast. So nobody wanted to lug into a socket that I design d. So I spent two years studying electrical engineering. I was at LeTourneau College, Longvie, Texas, and I played college baseball as a backup catcher And I my first hit was agains the team. Really happy as a d uble. I can tell you every hing about the pitch, left-hand d pitcher, curveball, right do n the right field line. I head-f rst slide into second. When we played the team again at ho e. We were playing a do bleheader. I was sure I was go ng to play. Coach didn't eve look at me and so I jus completely shut down. I was vocal person on the team. I'm freshman though, right? So it' like how much leadership i there? Next day after I didn' play and started moping and shu down. There's a knock on my dor door. And I opened the door an there's our head baseball coac. Sunday night. I'm lik, freshmen, "Oh, hey, coach. He's like "Sankey got a minute" Like, "Yeah, you want to He's like "No", so we went a d sat in the lounge. And he loo ed me in the eye. And he said omething I've testified to in co rt. I've thanked him for thi. He now lives outside Nashvill. And we hadn't connected for 0 years. And I brought him to o e of our events. And I said than you for this moment, because i changed my direction. He sa d, "If we'd have lost that g me, I would have blamed it on y u." And Jon, I'm a fresh an. I'm a backup catcher. I'm ba ting like .220. There's nothin special happening here. Like What do you mean by that?" And h said, "You have no idea h w important you are to this tea." If you just think about t at sentence, in the context of leadership, we're talking ab ut a team, your role and ow important you are. It was't about title. And there's bo ks written about that. It was't about seniority. It wasn't ab ut compensation. It wasn't ab ut performance. But it was ab ut the characteristic cal ed leadership. He said, "Whe you shut down, you hurt our eam." And we lost that game, wh ch we almost did, I would have lamed it on you. And I would hav told everyone, I'm like "Coach well here I was mad I didn't et to play." And it's like a swi ch was flipped for me. And it w s a change. I changed my focus f my studies, my career focus f what I wanted to do, in large art because of that experience. And Jon, if you go back to what was a building block, there were building blocks before, but that was kind of a mortar moment, if you will. That's where things held together and have ever since. And I could go to last year, I read about a half dozen books. I read more than a half dozen books, but about six books that were really important, early 2020, about Winston Churchill's leadership, about leading a seal team, abou leadership in turbulent times Teddy Roosevelt, Frankli Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, an Lyndon Johnson, and that's no in chronological order, by th way, but about their earl lives, their leadership, an then I read a book about th pandemic, and the grea influenza. And all of tho e experiences were part of thos building blocks, if you will an many more, but that moment i college of providing connection that has helped m continue to develop, whic indicates there was somethin there that somebody saw well before I knew a leadership "ge e", in air quotes, actually exis

Jon Acuff: 15:15

How long did it take you to process and receive that? You know, was your first interaction "Wow, I'm hurt that I, you know, acted that way. I'm a bear" like, did it take you a little bit to kind of process that and react to that? Or was it instantaneous?

Greg Sankey: 15:30

I was emotional in the moment. In fact, I had to testify in federal court a few years ago, and one of the lawyers said, "Hey, what, what led you to do what you do?" and I just, I couldn't figure it out. I didn't sleep. And at breakfast, I told that story. And the lawyer's like, "You need to tell that story." So I'm in court, I'm like, raising my hand, people are typing on, like, whatever they type on, there's a bunch of reporters. I've become emotional telling it. So in the moment, I think there was a recognition that I had not met expectations, which I would just suggest was processing. Wow, there's something happening here that I'm not seeing. Was I the greatest leader the next day? No, but I never shut down in that setting. And I've used that here. I'm like, "Hey, you may be" I'm the commissioner, right? So I'm like the the cleanup hitter, or I don't know, the manager in baseball, whatever it may be. You might be the backup catcher. And I may be looking at you, because I know how important you are and you don't see it. And if you wonder, come ask. Don't make me come knock on your dorm room on a Sunday night because you'll take a step back.

Jon Acuff: 16:36

Yeah, I love that scene. I want to jump back. You mentioned something about you heard other CEOs, and they didn't mention that they had questioned things. Why do you think leaders get to a place where they feel like they can't admit, "Hey, I don't know" or "I can't question." Do you feel like there's a pressure that you're supposed to have it all figured out by a certain point in your leadership? And to ask those questions is a sign of weakness? Where do leaders get stuck there?

Greg Sankey: 17:01

Well, there are several elements to that. I think one the expectation is the leaders, the innovator, the answer person, always on the cutting edge, and I actually think some of our leadership failures are because of those types of expectations like they're inerrant in their decision making. And we have to do this, this, and this. As opposed to, you know, slow and deliberate. Think through as much as you can. Acknowledge, you could make a decision, and there was a book I read by Annie Duke called Thinking In Bets that was about decision making as poker, not as chess. And it strikes me that we have viewed leadership as all these strategic decisions. And certainly to an extent is, but you're making decisions that are not certain on incomplete information, and this was last summer for me, with a bunch of dynamics, and you just don't know what card's going to flip next. And so what led you to that point had better have been well-informed, and you had better accept the discomfort of judgment. Well, you have to take a step back then, and analyze that it's not a linear experience, this leadership reality. It's not like we go from first base to second base to third base to home plate, we win, then we go to bat again, just to continue the baseball metaphors. You may run to first base, sprain your ankle, and have the trainer come out. And you're on the bench for six weeks before you can play again. And what are you going to do in that period of time? Are you going to Are you going to just sit there and stew? Or do you have the opportunity to take a look? How many leaders have said, you know in press conference or in earnings reports, "You know what, there's a lot of great opportunities out there. They're just not for us. Or they're for us, but not right now. Or we're going to have to change 10 things internally before we can go engage in that activity." And those are really difficult messages born from introspection. And I'll just go further. I one time had an interaction with a CEO where I asked, "Tell me your process for self-analysis and introspection. What are you doing to look carefully at yourself?" I almost fell over out of my chair. Because the response is, "Well, I don't do that." And that's incredibly dangerous to an organization.

Jon Acuff: 19:25

I've asked a number of leaders that question like, Why do leaders fall? You know, why do sometimes leaders implode? And I think lack of self you know, introspection and self-awareness, I think, isolation, they're not in community. People can't tell them the truth. I had a leader say that one of the things he's seen is they don't have life-giving hobbies. The thing they're leading becomes their entire identity. And that gets really dangerous. So from your perspective, and this kind of ties into my question about stress, it's been a stressful year for a lot of people. He talked about sitting on the porch catatonic. I'm imagining you in Birmingham, maybe you're in Homewood somewhere, you know, but for you, what's either something you do to alleviate stress or a hobby you do to go"Okay, I find a lot of life outside of this big thing which I run," what's a way you kind of refuel the tank?

Greg Sankey: 20:16

Well, I had to adjust. So I have completed 41 marathons in my lifetime, which is there's a whole psychological study of that experience. And it's been 10 years, I kind of roughed up my Achilles. So I started engaging in what's called Iron Tribe Fitness, kind of a functional fitness organization in Birmingham. Well, the gym shut down in March. So right if the point where I needed to go exercise, I could not. And I went about five days, Jon, where what was a pretty orderly day, wake up at 4:40am be in the gym

at 5: 20:48

15, cleanup, go read for an hour, then a Starbucks, and then go to work, because then the day was just gone, was all swept away. So what are you going to do? You're just going to exist in that environment? And "Okay, it's gone. Woe is me." Or are you going to be active? And that's one of the really healthy lessons for me personally. And so I just decided, I was going to go back to running. And I made a deal with myself, I was going to run 35 minutes a day. And like, why 35? Well, 30 was too easy a goal to pick like, that's obvious. So just add five more minutes and challenge yourself. I was going to keep moving. And I would not miss two consecutive days. So it's all pretty simple, right? 35 minutes, keep moving, didn't have to be fast. Just No, no distance. And then in mid-April, I had run four days in a row. And I said, well, I'm going to run for a week straight without a break. Well, that week is now I think, like 407 days as of this morning, so I finished this morning.

Jon Acuff: 21:50

That's an amazing streak.

Greg Sankey: 21:52

Yeah, the key there is, there wasn't the physical, but I've lost 30 pounds in this experience. It was the mental health. So 53 weeks ago, we had a meeting of our athletics directors and our presidents trying to figure out when can we open locker rooms and weight rooms again. Seems pretty small,"Well, big deal. They come in and lift weights." Remember, we didn't know how to test for COVID effectively. You couldn't get results for a week. And we're masking had been all over the place. How do you prevent spread of COVID? That's why we shut everything down. And Jon, everybody was all over the place. Like, "Open them up now!" Like "Texas is opening the gym, we have to open up now in College Station" and in Nashville, much more careful about having access. And so I was out on a run the morning where we had these meetings that we had to make a decision and there was no majority, where's it going to go? And I came up, I read another book called Never Split the Difference. It's from an FBI hostage negotiator. So it was either June first or June 30. So what's the obvious choice, right? June 15. Just split the difference. It's June 8, because we had a medical group, the one taskforce we appointed from my first statement of smaller groups, said "Before you do anything you need two weeks of lead time." And I went in and started making phone calls. And I went into these video conferences and people said, "Oh, okay, June 8, and then it just sailed. If I'm not running, and active in my thinking, I sit around trying to figure out and the lightbulb never goes off. But then so you asked me like, what do I do and I just brought it back to my work. But I'll listen to you while I run. I'll listen to any number of podcasts just to help me think a little bit. I'll pop on music. And that's been a goal completely separate from work, but it helps one's outlook and health.

Jon Acuff: 23:53

Well, you're one person. Everybody's one person. And so the segments of our lives bleed, in good ways, to the other segments. You mentioned you read an hour a day. Is that part of your normal routine? So you're, you know, in an average weekday, maybe even weekends, you're trying to read an hour a day?

Greg Sankey: 24:11

Well I used to in the old days. 2020.Those days. Exactly. Way back then. Because that was, that was m rhythm. You know I'd read or about 45 minutes. And your chedule's disrupted. Y That's a good tip. That was one of the things that made me want u're traveling. And now what I ound is I could not do that i the morning. So I'd run n the morning, get ready, t e day would go, and then I co ld not shut down because it was a home right? Like the sce e never changed. And it just kind of light bulb moment put my reading at the end of my day. And that settled me back down. It created this separation before I tried to go to slee. And you know I'll actual y be very intentional if I ca find 10 minutes to read when I m in the really reading inte sely effort. Yesterday, confes ion, I did not read it all. Just the day went away but I have seven days. I'll spend, you k ow, at least a half hour five o those days reading. And I mig t read fiction three times year. Generally trying to lear about people or thinking or, yo know, tactics, you know, exper ences. The result of a lesson I earned don't read book about leadership, read book about leaders, and draw lesso s from to talk with you. I got to speak to your team. I think it was last summer. Feels like 10 years ago, maybe last fall. It was last fall. We tried last summer. And then we rescheduled?

Jon Acuff: 25:37

We had to pivot.

Greg Sankey: 25:38

I borrow that. That phrase.

Jon Acuff: 25:39

Yeah. So one of the things that was interesting to me is after I spoke, you sent me a Word document with two or three pages of notes you had taken from one of my books, and I was so honored by that. But also so curious about how you read books. I think that's really interesting. So when you engage with a book, How are you taking notes? Where are those notes going? What are you doing with them? Can you walk me through that process a little bit?

Greg Sankey: 26:03

Sure. I go through highlighters like some people go through chewing gum. And it started probably almost 30 years ago, where I do not read a book without a highlighter. And now it's a compulsion. So if I pick up a book, and there's no highlighter, I start to shake. And I learned that, and this is from reading, if you consume something three times, you've somehow internalized it. And this was not like the greatest intentional act that I've ever had. But it was an outcome. And so if I, if I'm reading a book, that's one time I process the information, and then if I read something, and like, "Wow, that's a moment, I should, I should mark that." So I'll go through with the highlighter, that's two. And then I would come back. And I used to do this on my own, I would type up the notes. And I might, I would have two feet of books stacked up where I hadn't typed the notes. And then like the whole Christmas break that I had, I wouldn't talk to my family, I'd be typing book notes. "Don't bother me. I have to type my book notes." As our daughters entered High School and could type. They made money that way, which I didn't realize up front. So I'm just gonna confess, I'm not that bright. But somehow I end up in the right spot. So I'd pay like, "Okay, if you type this set of notes from my highlighted book, I'll pay you five or 10 bucks," right? They read the best part of the best books that I ever read.

Jon Acuff: 27:25

So good. What a backdoor to knowledge.

Greg Sankey: 27:27

Absolutely. They kept them. And they still will talk about them. And then here I have somebody on my staff who helps me with them. And what I do is I'll go distill the notes. So I fourth time, and I have one someplace right here were over about six months to a year I'll go through all the books, and then really forced myself to say"What was a learning moment or what's something I have to remember?" Those will end up being about 12 pages. So it's kind of a constant relearning process, over a year of reading, and then I will keep that and go back to the really filtered out parts. They end up in PowerPoints. We'll begin athletics directors meeting with just flashing PowerPoints of quotes. And some may be about media information I've learned. Some may be about leadership and tactics. One of my athletics directors sent me a Colin Powell quote, and I went back and dug it up about, he used to tell his staff "First, tell me what you know, then tell me what you don't know. And then you can tell me what you think." And that actually became our framework for thinking through problems last year. We'd look at what do we know? What do we not know? What do we think? And then we added, what do we hope, but hope is not a plan. So that's something else but that's how, that's the mechanical process. But the outcome is I have this constant rethinking of, you know, lessons from like, high-level leaders, if you think about the books I read. How Churchill Waged War. That's not like the friendliest title. I know, he had to bomb the French fleet six weeks into being Prime Minister. Like, who does that? And how do you make that decision?

Jon Acuff: 29:04

Exactly. You haven't even learned like where the break room is.

Greg Sankey: 29:09

You don't even know who to be mad at at that point. You're tender.

Jon Acuff: 29:12

Exactly. You don't even know how to get the paperwork filed. Man. That's crazy. Have you ever done a Greg book reading lists? So if I'm, you know, I'm the president of I don't know, Vanderbilt, and I'm like, "Wow, this is really interesting!" Do you have a list of books that you share with

Greg Sankey: 29:26

Yes. And I actually have two printed cards. I had an people? experience a couple years ago, on a podcast, people can't see this, I was 31 years old. I passed out in the Atlanta airport while I was standing at the urinal so you can figure out I was doing there. When you're getting up off the bathroom floor, you're not in a good place. And like that's the basic principle of function.

Jon Acuff: 29:50

That suitcase doesn't want to be on that floor. Whenever I roll in my suitcase it's like "What did I do to you?"

Greg Sankey: 29:55

One moment, I'm at the urinal, the next moment. Somebody's saying, "Sir, that's fine. Just stay down. We've called the paramedics" and I realized my cheek was about an inch off the tile. And he was talking to me and I had an atrial fibrillation, irregular heartbeat, the pop, just was lightheaded, wasn't taking care of myself, I was leading a much smaller entity, the Southland Conference, you know, at the time but wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating, wasn't exercising. And from that, I created a set of principles. So I have two cards. One is born out of that experience. I'll give these to people when I speak. And I'm not just saying this, because I'm visiting with you. I have five book recommendations on the other. And if you'll notice, there's only four books and there's a blank line so I can change the fifth block whenever I want to. The first is The Life You've Always Wanted by John Ortberg. And there's a line in there there are a couple lines,"I'm disappointed in my lack of disappointment," he'ss talking about his kids and his family like, ah, just right through the heart. And the second was 12th chapter. I had this experience on the bathroom floor and I meet with like corporate VPs, like TGI Fridays marketing VP, EDS, which was Ross Perot owned company, Verizon, which used to be MCI, like, how do you balance like work and family, it was like two sides. And I had six months of notes, I walk into this bookstore and The Life You've Always Wanted, it's right there. For $19.99 I can have the life I've always wanted. And in the back of the book, 12th chapter, he says, and I'll paraphrase, "balance is an insufficient goal to pursue," I just spent six months trying to figure out a balance my life,"it's not that it's too great. It's that it's too slight." And so that created an effort to write down a set of principles and how I wanted to live. And you know, I'm going to function in a certain way. So those ended up on one card. I give that when I speak to students to say look, and it's like the funny moment, principle in life, if you're getting up off the bathroom floor, you're really in an unhealthy spot. They're like, uncomfortably looking around, like I wasn't on the bathroom for the reason college age kids on a Saturday night are on the bathroom floor. And then I went from that and I created some other things, like words for living. So my five book recommendations Life You've Always Wanted and I went like completely down a rabbit trail, you have to figure out if you edit that out. Be Quick, But Don't Hurry, which was a guy who played basketball for John Wooden at UCLA. John Wooden, legendary basketball coach, and the guy hated him. Because he never achieved the basketball success. And he ended up leading CBS production, CBS studios, and he's in his 40s. And he realized every day he used something that Coach Wooden had taught him playing basketball. And it's just a great story of reconnecting, but also what was taught. The Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes is on my list. I think that is one of the deepest It's like an awkward thing to tell people to read, because it's kind of depressing. But if you actually open up and read what the author is saying, it describes the life in like 15 pages and the futility of what we spend our time chasing, as opposed to candidly at the end, it says have a relationship with God that's meaningful and true. And then the fourth book is Do Over by Jon Acuff. That's so crazy to me. And so you're on the list with Ecclesiastes.

Jon Acuff: 33:20

Amazing, that's amazing. I love that. That is so kind to me. And that was how we first connected. We were tweeting each other about books and about Do Over And one of he things that was interesting o me, the first time I came an talked to your team, I mention d I was going to do that and a b nch of people are like "Well a k him about this call. Ask him about the Auburn game." The SE fanbase is passionate, to say t e least. I grew up in New ngland. I didn't know. I moved to the south. I just thought people were into flags on Saturdays. Like all the sudden flags are on cars. I mean, ike I grew up with Doug Flutie doing something amazing against Miami in the 80s. That's all knew of college football. Co ing out here, it's crazy. So ho do you deal with the ne ative criticism that in your po ition definitely comes your wa? Does it impact you? Have you, ou know, "I've got to think of skin now"? Like, what's tha process look like

Greg Sankey: 34:15

I grew up outside Syracuse, New York little town called Skaneateles on a lake, kind of same experience. Syracuse, basketball is a big deal. Don MacPherson was a quarterback for Syracuse in the 80s. Finished second in the Heisman Trophy, I've come to know him and every time I see him, I'm like, "You should have won the Heisman Trophy, not Tim Brown." I mean, that's as far as it went. And then I moved to Louisiana, Kathy and I were married, and eight months later, we're living in Natchitoches, Louisiana. And I challenge you to spell that. And she didn't sign up for that. And I didn't know what was going to happen. That was just the opportunity. And that was the introduction, the passion around LSU throughout the state. And then we lived in Texas for 11 years in the Dallas area and the passion around A&M. Since they're in the SEC, I won't speak of any other in Texas. And I got to see and watch and I moved here in '02 and was kind of a lower level and was able to watch the anger that can manifest itself. And it's directed at a leadership position. So yesterday we're playing our baseball tournament, as we record this, we had a controversial call and a double play late in the game. And you can look at my Twitter, I have middle fingers, I have people who like their Twitter bio, this is my favorite, "by the grace of God, I'm saved." Right? "By the grace of God, I'm saved." And then they're like, you know,"You suck, and I hate you. And I hope you suffer tremendous suffering."

Jon Acuff: 35:38

It always kills me when it's like, somebody's like,"washed by the blood of the Lamb." Like they love Jesus and also hate me. That's a weird combo.

Greg Sankey: 35:49

Watch it play out on my Twitter feed. I felt badly because I actually, after you tweeted that I looked, I'm like,"Oh, this guy's getting an introduction into my world." And we had a long debate, like, should I even be on social media? And we just decided it allowed me to be human, a little bit. Talked about running, talked about books. I've tried to avoid, I don't talk about officiating. That's what like, okay, I've been Commissioner for six years now, I've never once commented on officiating. I did take a shot at the NHL at a Predators game one time, I shouldn't have done that, on they're officiating. It hurts. I'd be lying. We're human, right? But it's like, you have to look at it. And you know, you're looking somebody's got three followers. And you're like, "Okay." The only thing I can do by responding is magnify their presence, so. Hey, officials make mistakes. Like hello world. Officials are human beings and not perfect, but they're in a dynamic environment making decisions in a split second. And they're actually paid to decide the close calls. Like the easy calls, I don't need officials to figure that out. Oh, he caught the pop fly, and he's out, okay, glad the official got that, right. It's like, bang, bang, make a decision. And if you're doing anything above 50%, if you think about it, like rationally, bang, bang, instantaneous decision, if you can get more than half of those, right, that's actually success. Now, I expect them to be perfect. And we have officials that don't stay with us, but I respect the fact they're going to make errors. And people are going to be angry. And I'm glad they care enough to be angry. That's where I live on that.

Jon Acuff: 37:24

That's great. I'm glad they care enough to be angry. I love that. So one of the things that recently happened for you, you were part of negotiating a $3 billion deal. So massive deal, ESPN, huge moment for the SEC. So I'm a listener to this podcast, I'm not going to be negotiating a $3 billion deal. But I'm trying to negotiate a salary raise for me. Like in that, you know, post pandemic, I want to get a raise, what are tips you'd give somebody who'd say, "Okay, what do I need to know about negotiating?"

Greg Sankey: 37:54

Without verifying that your number is correct, because it may not be, that's the media speculation. You've read that. So that's not I say that with a smile. But at least that How's that? I don't know. Like I have a degree from Cortland State University. State University of New York in education. You had better find really good people around you, your internal team and your external team. And understand that, let's just say it's a salary deal, like you're not going to go pay somebody a bunch of money as an advisor, but you need some people to help you through

Jon Acuff: 38:32

Wise counsel.

Greg Sankey: 38:33

Yeah, like, so one of our advisors in the media deals was like, "Hey, if you think about your ask, I tell these these guys all the time that work in LA and their agents, they want to make a million dollars." And he said,"I'll look at them and say,'what's the difference in your life between 900,000 and a million?' And they're like,'Well, you know, I guess nothing.'" And he says, "Yeah, but when you walk in that door, and say 'I want a million dollars,' versus saying, 'I want$900,000,' that's a big difference to the person receiving the message." And there are those elements that you'd never think about. So if you're trying to go from 50 to$70,000, I would argue, that's actually not going to be a negotiated point. You're going to build that value all along the way. And in my life, I've always put the money aside for my job. So if you want to go through the principles that I talked about after the bathroom floor, money follows, it doesn't lead. And when I first came here, I was at the end of the hallway in a small organization, and I took a 35% pay cut to come work in the Southeastern Conference, and most people would say, I left the Southland Conference, I came to the Southeastern Conference, I must have made a lot more money. No, I was at the end of the learning loop. That's part of how I make decisions about my career. And I could make another lap on that learning loop, you know, and let my passion maybe flicker or die out or I could go challenge myself again. And if they're going to pay me 100,000, or 110,000, or 50,000, less than I was making, if I learned and grew and build value long term, I'd have the advantage. No guarantees. That's the beauty. Right?

Jon Acuff: 40:16

It's a bet.

Greg Sankey: 40:16

Bingo. And that's literally it. So if you were to see how do I make decisions, I want to be challenged so I can learn and grow. The three metrics. There's no money, there's no geography, there's no size of house. Those are my three metrics I came to in the 90s. And they've served me really, really well. I've now gone so far from what you asked me.

Jon Acuff: 40:38

No, I thought one you said, okay, you read that we'll see about the number, let's see what the final is but so you said no money, geography and size a house? Those are the three things you take off?

Greg Sankey: 40:50

Yeah, I mean, the size of house, probably not. But what I will say is, money follows, it doesn't lead. So I've taken jobs with no idea. In fact, I told this story I was making [$40,000], I moved into the leadership position, the person who offered it to me said, "We don't know what we're gonna pay you. Can you wait until our board meets to figure it out?" I'm like, "Sure." Now, that's a bad negotiating technique, by the way. Really bad. Do you want to learn grow and be challenged? Or do you want to make $5,000 more than they might have offered you?

Jon Acuff: 41:20

Yeah. Over a year minus taxes. Where like in a week, that's going to be $7. And there's never going to be a week we go, "I'm so glad I got this$7."

Greg Sankey: 41:29

Yeah, well, it's your Quitter book, which I read after you spoke, because one of my staff who by the way, has since quit and taken another job. So thanks for that.

Jon Acuff: 41:36

I had nothing to do with that. They were on a learning loop.

Greg Sankey: 41:39

I said it with a smile, it's perfect, because I saw that she had the book, she was here and earned her MBA, while she worked as an administrative assistant. Had a college degree in English, couldn't figure out what to do. Came here for four years, earned an MBA and now she's in charge of human resources and business development for a company in this area. And so I read the book, and I'm like, that's, he stole my schtick, right? It's like, do something that helps you do the next thing.

Jon Acuff: 42:09

Yeah.

Greg Sankey: 42:10

And figure out when you're going to make that decision. And you're either going to work for the Southeastern Conference or work for your cell phone bill, your gas bill, and your rent. So if you're bringing it back, if I could figure out how to do both which or somebody could argue like, if you look at Twitter, maybe not successfully, depending on how much anger there is today, it works really, really well. You may have different words around it. Put aside the things that don't matter. You're going to spend all you make was one of the great lessons. There's a point at which don't, you save some, but early on, first job, you take the easiest one, you take it. I didn't read that one, I came to that one because like, I don't have a job. They want me to be the director of intramural sports either at the college. And they're gonna pay for me to go to Syracuse, which was the kicker compared to other jobs. I can get my masters for free.

Jon Acuff: 42:58

Yeah. I leave this with a Master's.

Greg Sankey: 43:00

Bingo! I got experience, made some money, paid my bills. You know, I have a Master's from Syracuse, which I actually, was really important to me. I wouldn't have chosen that. I wanted to be a coach. I wanted to coach kids at like the high school level, and then it opened up all these doors. And that's where, when I put the money aside, it was $15,000 a year. So it's not like I was paying a lot of bills. I was paying enough. I had the master's degree opportunity. I had the experience. And then that just opened doors. And one of the pieces of advice my first day at work, my boss looks at me and says "So we can go get your masters for free. When are you going to start?" and I said,"I'm really tired of going to school. I'm 22 years old, it took me five years to get through a four year degree. I transferred twice."

Jon Acuff: 43:48

You're pretty exhausted as a 22 year old. Yeah, it's it's true. So one more serious question and

Greg Sankey: 43:50

Yeah, I transferred twice. So it's not like I was this stellar academitian, I had it all figured out, which should encourage everyone listening that you have an opportunity. Just stay, don't quit, stay at it. And he says, "Look, if you don't start now, you never will." One of the best pieces of advice because people say it's like who you know, it's not what you know, that's not true. Timing matters. And so where opportunities presented themselves, if I'd waited a year, I think I'd be successful. We're probably not talking. I'm not here. Who knows. And and so one of the other pieces of advice I give is if you have a chance to go earn your M sters, go get it right away. tart that process because it ill not become any easier. And have some staff work for me ears ago who, who I gave that dvice to on their first day of ork because I learned the esson who say "You know what? You're right. I've got two kids ho are in high school. I just d n't have time to d then three quick, ridiculous ones. Last serious question. What do you think is the key to consistency? You mentioned that like Just don't quit, like, you know, stick in it stick around. People tend to struggle with consistency. We know the tortoise and the hare like, what do you think is the key to becoming a more consistent performer? Whether that's a job, whether that's a health goal, like you've touched on a number of different really helpful areas of life with goals, what do you think the key to consistency is? Well, yeah, you have to acknowledge perfection's not reality. The line, I should know who said it, because I usually remember but "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." It's a great quote. So you think about my running goal. Consistency, like an absolute ss, I'm going to run every day. And I'm going to run this fast, run this many miles. What mattered, move, right? Go move for 35 minutes and sweat. And don't miss two days in a row. Because the more you miss, the harder it is to begin again, very simple. That was the right consistency, the ability to wake up every day, and engage your mind, even when you know the difficulties are coming. Probably the "I get to" versus the "I have to" syndrome, in shifting that thinking. And I'm like, into cliches now. "95% of life is just showing up." I mean literally being there and engaged in doing high quality work and doing just a little bit more than they ask. That's the kind of consistency that they ask for. Hey, you know, I need to have quiet time, devotional time today. Well, you know, like the pastor of my church, I know he studies God's word for two hours every day, right? That's what we kid ourselves. Okay, like, I've got 10 minutes, because everything's pressing around, are you better off doing it, and having consistency, even if it's compressed, or just ignoring? And that's where that consistency word has to be a little bit malleable. And you have to acknowledge reality, but you have to set the right kind of parameters to keep you moving forward. Because if I was to say, "What did I do last year, that was really significant?" At its essence, we just didn't quit. Yep, I communicated, we changed our operating rhythm. We figured out how to COVID test, we brought in the right experts, and we just kept moving forward. And if you'll keep doing that, even when it's incredibly difficult, you'll build up this momentum that just continues. And when you have problems, the momentum can carry you through, you can reset based on the progress you've made in the past.

Jon Acuff: 47:35

I love that I'm working on a new book and consistency is one of the principles because I think we want to be awesome before we're consistent. And I think the only way to be awesome is to be consistent. And because that,you know, and the expectation is you'll be awesome, faster than you want. But it's the consistency that, you know, and it's not sexy, and it's often boring. But it's the thing that actually adds up. So I love that we just didn't quit.

Greg Sankey: 48:00

And if I can just add we we see these high performers. And again, I'll use this when I speak to students. Like "How do I become the Commissioner of the Southeastern Conference?" I'm like, "I don't know. I'll tell you my story. And you can figure out if that's the path. But what you don't see is me then. You see me now. And there is no shortcut. You see Michael Jordan hitting game winning shots. And the NBA championships." I'm dating myself now, right? Because they're like, Who's Michael Jordan?

Jon Acuff: 48:31

Yeah.

Greg Sankey: 48:32

You know, Tiger Woods, winning the Masters two years ago. And all the others, you don't see what it took to stand on the 18th green with the green jacket. They tell you you'll just show up and all sudden it's there. And I think that's one of the lies that is communicated by not being honest about leadership, introspection, doubts, failures, questions, readjustments, having to make judgment decisions, because one of the things I said to our membership is, we're going to have more data last year, when we get to July than we did in March, we're gonna have a lot more information about COVID. It will be incomplete. And what that means is, you can't make data based decisions exclusively, eventually, judgment will have to guide you and just be prepared. That's it, you're going to have to make judgments.

Jon Acuff: 49:26

The way I say that is that we leaders who look for all the information will never make a decision because we haven't lived in an "all" world for 100 years. You have enough. Like you get enough information, there's judgment, there's wisdom. But if your goal is all the information, you'll never have all the information.

Greg Sankey: 49:44

I spoke to a member of the New York Times editorial boards. Like I ended up on HBO Real Sports and I'm hotboxed and they've got their list of gotcha questions. Like the interviewer's an actor and he poses every time before he asked me the question. Took me 15 minutes figure it out. The Washington Post has a leaked audio of honest questions and answers between our football student athletes and our doctors. We told them what we knew. And we told them what we didn't know, we were honest about both. And you're like, when you hear about it, you're like, "Oh, this is going to be horrible." I'm like, "You know, I'm proud we do that. That's exactly what we need to do is be is be honest." And the New York Times editorial board is like asking me these questions like,"Look, we have to make the best judgments we possibly can based on the best available information." And that's life. And we've somehow created this thought, like, "Hey, we can figure it all out. And it's all going to be perfect, or there are no after effects of decisions," right? You know, or"I shouldn't be held accountable." Every one of these decisions has outcomes. And you're going to make the best decision, take your time, gather the best information, admit your failures, and to the extent you can be transparent and honest with your your groups and your leadership entities, do so.

Jon Acuff: 50:58

I love that. So last three rapid fire questions that are ridiculous. I wanted to ask you questions, like you just said, New York Times editorial board, I've seen you on other podcasts, you've been on like, it was a huge year as far as doing interviews. I wanted to ask three questions you probably hadn't been asked. Number one, which of the SEC mascots, I mean, like the actual animals, because some still have actual animals, is most likely to bite you? Like if you're looking at It's hard to predict, we don't have all the information. But it's a year from now. And I'm interviewing you again. And you go "Yeah, crazy story, man. I'm at the game. He breaks loose with his handlers." When I was doing this research because obviously a research question. I didn't realize there's three tigers, the Auburn Tigers, LSU tigers, and Missouri's the Tigers too. So maybe Tiger's the easy answer, but which is the, which you think is the animal most likely to bite you? Not in a terrible way, but it's a story.

Greg Sankey: 51:50

Yeah, the trap for me is when I pick one of 4 teams and it's like messages, "See, he hates us. He's just said it right there. That's we'll never get any officiating calls and we play all of our games on the road."

Jon Acuff: 52:02

Is that a gotcha question? Did I just ask you a gotcha question?

Greg Sankey: 52:04

Believe it or not. Yeah, I would just suggest, so we do have, you know, a few human, if you will, mascots.

Jon Acuff: 52:14

Yeah, I'm not included name. It'd be weird if a human bit you, like that's a bigger issue.

Greg Sankey: 52:19

Well we have Wildcats. We have Gamecocks, which are trained to fight whether we want to admit that or not. Tigers. We have elephants that represents the schools, so stopping would be a greater threat there then then the biting thing. We have a number of Bulldogs involved. Tigers. Rebels, which could be more of a shooting incident then, and that was just not popular today. So there are any number of threats that can emanate at any time. So I'm just going to say I'm at risk at every moment from that sense.

Jon Acuff: 52:54

I love that answer. Now, a second second question. You've seen me on zoom. We can see each other right now. I spoke to your team. How many plays in an SEC football game could I survive until I started crying?

Greg Sankey: 53:05

Yeah, I saw that on Twitter. I like well, if I respond, and then he's gonna be looped into my officiating conversation, so I opted out. I'm not sure you would make it to putting on the uniform. I mean that. I stand by these guys. Like, right? For trophy presentations, and I look at them like "He'd kill me if he hit me one time." My staff was trying to keep an offensive lineman last year off of a trophy stand. I'm like, "Dude, you're going to get crushed." So Jon, it's not you. It's just the respect for what I'm talking about football, the young man have contributed to the preparation, that wouldn't be a good scene.

Jon Acuff: 53:48

Last quesiton. And I love the thought of me like, I couldn't even get the pads on the right way. That's funny. Last question, which do you think is more likely to be added to the SEC, on a D-1 level, jai alai or spear fishing?

Greg Sankey: 54:02

Oh, spear fishing.

Jon Acuff: 54:03

Really? That's a fast answer.

Greg Sankey: 54:05

We almost did a series on bass fishing. So anything with fishing is going to be big in our region. Spears, bass, hooks.

Jon Acuff: 54:15

So you feel like jai alai doesn't have a future in the SEC right? And I mean, I don't want to put you another gotcha situation.

Greg Sankey: 54:21

Well, I'm not gonna exclude it forever. But you asked me between those two. Well you throw fishing in there. You know, we've got the salt life Southern tide. Yeah, we're we're gonna be fine. Anything fishing. So blank fishing. We'll have one.

Jon Acuff: 54:39

That is great. Well, Greg, this has been an absolute delight. I know how busy your schedule is. And I really appreciate you making time for me. The door's always open. If there's ever anything I can do to encourage your team. I love getting to do that. It was just super fun to me. So thanks for making time for this today. I think it's gonna help and encourage a lot of people.

Greg Sankey: 54:57

No, thank you. I hope so. And appreciate your work. And as I've said, I mean, literally I'm looking at the card so I've benefitted from your writings which is not easy, that's the behind the scenes stuff that cries for consistency right even when you can't figure it out.

Jon Acuff: 55:13

That's why I'm not big and muscular and can play SEC football. I have writing fingers. I've sacrificed what could have been a huge frame for a writer's life and it's, you know, a sacrifice.

Greg Sankey: 55:24

We'll go with that narrative. I was a little harsh on the pads thing, though.

Jon Acuff: 55:28

I think that was the best answer all day. Okay, so awesome. Greg, thanks for joining me today.

Greg Sankey: 55:32

Take care.

Jon Acuff: 55:35

How good was Greg Sankey, right? So good. I took a lot of notes during that one. I hope you did too. Okay, so that's all for this week. Make sure you subscribe or follow or whatever it is the kids are saying these days about podcasts. And thank you so much for writing so many awesome reviews. Those are the best. See you next week. And remember, all it takes is a goal. This episode of the podcast was brought to you by Medi-Share. Text JON, J-O-N to 474747 for more information. Huge thank you to Medi-Share for sponsoring it. J-O-N to 474747.

Producer: 56:21

Thanks for listening. To learn more about the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast and to get access to today's show notes, transcript, and exclusive content from Jon Acuff, visit Acuff.me/podcast. Thanks again for joining us. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of the All It Takes Is A Goal podcast.